End Times Prophecy

This is about HOW and WHY I went from a belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture to what you call a Pre-Wrath rapture. It is not very different. It is not Post-Trib. It is not Mid-Trib. It is just exactly what the Bible says. And if you are not scared off by me admitting it, I would like to share how I came to this belief and give Scriptures that show why.

I come from a pre-trib rapture church. I have spent many years with my nose in every commentary and going to every service about prophecy. I got so mad at my best friend when she told me she didn’t believe in the rapture. I felt like I just couldn’t relate to her anymore! My bad.

I have been praying for her for 4 years now, that she would believe in the pre-trib rapture. I mean the Word CLEARLY says that we are not appointed to the wrath of God.

About a year ago, I was going through a class on Revelation (pre-trib) with an affiliate church. And in chapter 5 I began to see that the Seal’s are very similar to the New World Order agenda. And I began to wonder if they are not God’s judgment, but God’s allowance. He unseals these things, so He allows the world to have their way–to have their Anti-Christ, to have their wars, pestilence (bio-weapons), famines (Monsanto), martyrdom (depopulation), and earthquakes (Haarp), etc.

Then recently I noticed that 2 Thessalonians 2 says that concerning the gathering (rapture) that it cannot happen until the man of sin is revealed.

“Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.  He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” (1-4)

We have a timing issue there. And my pre-trib teachers and commentators are great men of God–they have reasons why they can explain that this is not saying what it says. They are smarter than I am. But I am simply reading it. The gathering, cannot happen until the man of sin is revealed and sits in the temple saying he is god. That IS literally what it says. I used to teach that it didn’t mean this. I believed it too.

Then I noticed that if you just READ Matthew 24 without opening a commentary, you can NOT come to a pre-trib rapture view. The disciples ask Jesus what is the sign of His Coming an the end of the Age (world). Jesus begins to talk about earthquakes, wars, deception(False Messiah), famines, pestilence, martyrdom, and COSMIC SIGNS.

I think the clincher for me was noticing that EACH thing Jesus mentions in Matthew 24–correlates to EACH Seal that He opens in heaven. Check it out!

My pre-trib brothers say that the church is raptured before the main events of Matthew 24. That would be wonderful. But I have two reasons why I personally disagree.

1.) He was talking to HIS followers. He told them what to expect. The early church expected to see these things before the gathering up. (proof 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4).

2.) He said to them, “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.” Or you will be hated for “MY NAME’S SAKE”–while the pre-trib believers say this applies only to the Jews. The Jews are hated by the enemy, but not for Jesus’ Name.

3.) When Jesus rose from the dead, He did not change what He told them–now that they had entered the “church age.” When they even asked HIM in Acts 1 if it was time. So they were still to expect to go through these things.

Now, that I have explained why I think we will go through the 7 seals. let me explain why I think we will be taken before God pours out His wrath.

We can see that God is going to pour out His Spirit on His people until the Sun turns to darkness, the moon turns to blood, the stars fall from the sky, and the heavens recede like a scroll. That happens during the sixth seal. And at the end of Matthew 24.

Let’s look at Matthew’s account of this:

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d]31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Now let’s look at Revelation six’s account of this:

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

So we have two places that talk about the same cosmic signs (sun, moon, stars). But we have another one in Acts 2, which is actually Peter quoting from Joel. So it is repeated in Scripture. Mentioned twice–it is significant. Let’s look:

16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[c]

Notice that it says that God’s Spirit will be poured out on His people, even up to the cosmic signs of Matthew 24, and Revelation 6.

But, pre-trib believers will here point out that people who are left behind after the rapture will repent and choose Jesus. However, when I look at Revelation I see a verse that says,

20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts. (Revelation 9:21)

and

They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him. (Revelation 16:9).

Revelation says that the unsaved will not be repenting, but that they will refuse Him still.

Another thing I want to point out is that Jesus teaches in Matthew 24 that after/during the cosmic signs, He will be seen in the heavens and He will gather His elect from the four corners of earth into heaven.

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24)

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free,hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” (Revelation 6)

Revelation shows this too. After the cosmic signs of Chapter 6 we see in Chapter 7 a great multitude that no one can number. Look at what it says,

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

This is a verse used by my brothers and sisters that believe in a pre-trib rapture to justify the idea that people will get saved in the Tribulation; because they believe that the church is already in heaven in chapter 5.

But indulge me. Let me show you something. And make of it what you will.

In chapter 6 we see people in heaven, but they do not have bodies. John says,

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 

When John sees them, he only sees their souls. So the gathering (in my opinion) could not have happened, or else they would have their bodies too. The rapture and the resurrection happen at the same time.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

So they have no bodies in Chapter 6 but in Chapter 7 we see bodies–a great multitude, clothed, waving palm branches–coming out of the great tribulation.

So the timing as far as I believe is clear. After the Anti-Christ sits in the Temple of God saying he is god (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4). And after we see the cosmic signs of the sixth seal (Matthew 24 and Revelation 6).

BUT BEFORE the WRATH OF GOD

1.) Jesus mentions EVERY seal that He will open. But He does not tell His disciples to expect ANY of the Trumpet or Bowl Judgements. Why? Because they did not need to expect them. They would be gone. No seas turning to blood, no demonic locust/scorpion/monsters, no fiery hail. They would be gone.

2.) Daniel talks about the 70th week of the the Lord. We believe that it stands for a 7 year period known as the Tribulation. And a lot of people believe we will be taken right before those seven years start. But if what I am saying is true, then the 7 years is not filled with the Wrath of God alone, but the wrath of Satan.

  • The First Part of the Tribulation=Satan takes his wrath out on the church (martyrdom) and the Anti-Christ is glorified.
  • The Second Part of the Tribulation=God takes out His wrath on an evil world (bowls and trumpet judgments) and JESUS is glorified. From the moment we are drawn up to heaven, the world sees Him and they KNOW their time has come. In Revelation 6 after the cosmic signs it says,

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free,hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

3.) So if the 70th Week of Daniel represents One Week of Years, or 7 years. Why does the Bible repeatedly refer to the time of God’s Wrath as “The Day of the Lord?” All through the Old and New Testaments, God’s Wrath is referred to as a Day and not a Week.

For the day of the LORD of hosts [Shall come] upon everything proud and lofty, Upon everything lifted up–And it shall be brought low– (Isaiah 2:20)

Wail, for the day of the LORD [is] at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. (Isaiah 13:6)

For this [is] the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries.The sword shall devour; It shall be satiated and made drunk with their blood; For the Lord GOD of hosts has a sacrifice In the north country by the River Euphrates. (Jeremiah 46:10).

For the day [is] near, Even the day of the LORD [is] near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles. (Ezekiel 30:3)

Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD [is] at hand; It shall come as destruction from the Almighty. (Joel 1:15)

Woe to you who desire the day of the LORD! For what good [is]the day of the LORD to you? It [will be] darkness, and not light. (Amos 5:18)

For the day of the LORD upon all the nations [is] near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head. (Obadiah 1:15)

The great day of the LORD [is] near; [It is] near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out. (Zephaniah 1:14)

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. (Zechariah 14:1)

For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. (1 Thessalonians 5:2)

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. (2 Peter 3:10)

So the DAY of the Lord, is probably at least about a year long (give or take). We know that the 5th trumpet will last 5 months. But all these catastrophes could happen in a rather short amount of time.

But we don’t know exactly when it will start. It could happen any time after the abomination of desolation. Like a thief in the night.

And what is interesting is that Lord is not waiting for a specific day or date to pour out His wrath, but for a specific number–of martyrs.

“How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe,and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e]were killed just as they had been. (Revelation 6).

How precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of these saints. This is what our faith was founded in–martyrs. All of the disciples were persecuted. And we think in the last days we will escape persecution. Look around the world, the church is persecuted.

Here is another chart that is great to sum up what I have been talking about. You see all the seals take place, the rapture, the wrath, etc.

If you want to see it bigger click here.

Then afterward He pours out all his wrath during the Day of the Lord, then the Lord will come and fight the battle of Armageddon and end it all.

I have heard some teach that the Trumpet judgments and the bowl judgments may happen concurrently, which would explain chapter 11 with the winepress. But I digress. That is not what I am here to talk about.

I hope and pray I didn’t confuse you. If you think I am crazy or weird or a heretic because I know longer believe in a pre-trib rapture–I understand. I felt really weird around my best friend for a long time. In fact, we couldn’t even talk about it because I would get so mad! I get it. She had nothing to do with me switching either.

I just read the Word and it fit.

Without a commentary, just the word, and it made sense.

I am not a scholar or a theologian.

I go to a pre-trib church.

I don’t talk about this with them : )

I respect the leadership and don’t want to cause problems.

But this is my blog, and I don’t share it with my church, so I will be honest.

This is what I see when I look at the Bible.

I am not Pre-Trib.

I am not a Preterist.

I am actually very concerned over the preterist view.

In my [opinion] I believe you have to literally tear pages out of your Bible to hold to a Preterist view. Nero never sat in the temple, he never went to Jerusalem, Israel is not Babylon, the church did not replace her. There is a One World Government coming, it’s leader is not a good peace loving guy. etc. I am concerned for those of my brothers and sisters that are caught up in this view. I love them. But it really concerns me.

Anyways,

I am not “Mid-Trib” or “Post-Trib.”

I am “Pre-Wrath.”

I think this belief does a very good job taking the truth that each camp has clung to.

We are not appointed to wrath,

We will be taken after the anti-Christ is revealed,

With the sound of the trumpet OF God (NOT the trumpet of an angel in Revelation 11),

We will go through hard times.

We may be martyred.

But even so, I would rather stand on what the Word plainly says, than try to have someone else tell me it means something different.

This just fits.

Every Scripture fits together like a puzzle you don’t have to force the pieces into.

When I started putting the pieces together I called my friend and told her that I saw in the word that we will no longer have a pre-trib rapture, and I told her why. She could hardly believe it, after how long I tried to convince her of the former belief. I love how the Lord works. I am so happy that I didn’t change my mind because of some “person’s” opinion, but just because of what I saw in the Word.

And most of my friends still believe in Pre-Trib, so I don’t have much fellowship on this topic. But I love them. My prayer is that their faith would be so strong, that they will be ready for persecution and trouble. Because it could start very soon. I am also afraid that the churches have taught that we will be gone before the anti-Christ and the mark and all that, and many believers will either be deceived–“This is not the anti-Christ. This is not the mark. We will be raptured first.” OR be heartbroken, “He said He would come and rapture us and He didn’t.” If pre-wrath is true, may God open our eyes so we will be ready and not overcome. Jesus Himself told us to expect those things. I think it helps to be expecting, to be praying that we can be ready, and endure all that.

Now if I haven’t bored you to death by now, and you want to learn more about Pre-Wrath here is a video that I found that sums it up, probably WAY better than I could. I should have just posted the video and saved an hour of typing. LOL.

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76 Responses to End Times Prophecy

  1. Good to see you’ve ceased following those who practice eisegesis and have joined those who practice exegesis. 😀

  2. Pingback: From Bad to Worse | Focused and Free

  3. Elaine says:

    Thank you. I was brought up Baptist with the pre-trip view. Up until two years ago I went to Calvary Chapel for a few years and they taught that Christ could come any moment. I was reading a blog that talked about the false pre-trip doctrine and I got so upset – I was not going to read that blog again! And then I started reading the Bible for myself and things didn’t quite add up to a pre-trib situation. I was like having cold water splashed in my face. I believe along the same lines as you, now. And I pray that as times get tougher my sisters and brothers in Christ will be strong as the persecution begins. I pray that I will be strong. I am not very brave in scary situations and I don’t like pain, but I cling to the verse in the Bible that says Jesus will keep you strong until the end. I Corinthians 1:8.
    Mathew 24:13 The one who endures to the end will be saved.

    • I know, I felt the same way sometimes, I would find a cool blog or forum but qualify it with “but they don’t believe in the pre-trib rapture.” I know I felt such a strong fear. I didn’t even want to consider that.

      And honestly I still enjoy many pre-trib ministers. I think what I would prefer though, is for them to be more open about ALL the different eschatological views. I wish they would say, “I believe in the pre-trib for x,y, z reason. But other good Christians disagree or think this because of these reasons . . . ” I think it would give them better credibility, and help the church to know that it is okay to do some research into this–we don’t have to fear having a different opinion on this as long as they are based in Scripture. And we can talk about it. Because right now, I am in a position, where talking about this at church would not be a good idea.

      Anyways, God bless you Elaine : )

  4. please read VIP says:

    must watch and hear video on youtube titled, “Christ testimony of the churches around the world.” most of revelation is happening in the spirit world. that’s why Jesus said it would be like the days of Noah and Lot. the abomination of desolation is happening in the spirit realm inside all these man made buildings set up for worship. the Christians and catholics, etc are not aware of what’s happening around them in these places, (churches -any four wall building representing God to gather believers of Christ). these churches around the world are all connected to “The Great City” Revelation 11, which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt and Mystery of iniquity. Church leaders around the world are searching of the earthly signs. this will not happen until the very last day and hour. God will not allow man to destroy the earth with nuclear bombs. read matthew 3:12 and Revelation 20:9. God sends his son to the earth with the fire behind him consuming all his enemies which are left from the resurrection of the dead and those that are alive. the body of Christ is gathered as the son of man appears at last sound of shofar, he is coming while the wheat are gathered and the tares are left as the chaff and earth is consumed by the fire of God.

    • Thank you for your comment VIP! I will definitely look into that video. God bless.

    • VIP, I watched half of that video and I had to turn it off. Something doesn’t sit right with me at all. It was making me feel sick. I believe there is a spirit of confusion and possibly even witchcraft behind that testimony and revelation. I do believe that the Lord speaks to people supernaturally, but He always uses revelation to open up the WORD of God and He confirms all revelation with the WORD of God. This message is not Biblical. And my heart is breaking for a woman who has obviously been through so much, but I cannot bear witness with the revelation of a confessed demoniac/ex-demoniac–because her revelations come from a time of extreme confusion, demonic activity, and events that sound like astral projection. She is not a reliable prophet. While I am open to your suggestion that some of the events of the Tribulation will play out behind closed doors (such as the peace treaty and other such things), I definitely believe that the trumpet and bowl judgments are clearly physical events, JUST LIKE the plagues of Egypt. But thank you for sharing that with me. I pray that you continue to see truth from the Lord through His WORD.

  5. Pingback: From Bad to Worse | Focused and Free

  6. Ester Bunnie says:

    One thing that many people never take into consideration when thinking about the end times, the ‘rapture, and the return of Jesus is the Jewish pattern that God set out – part of which has already been fulfilled – his appointed times in Leviticus 23. If you look at God’s appointed times, you see that 4 of these have been fulfilled in a new covenant way: Passover (lamb of God is slain); Feast of Unleavened Bread (removal of sin); Firstfruits (resurrection); and Shavuot (arrival of the Holy Spirit). What remains undone? the Blowing of Trumpets (called Rosh HaShanah in the Jewish community); Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement/Judgment/Day of the Lord); and Sukkot (Tabernacles – dwelling with God). These last three must fit into your eschatology since God has laid out this pattern for our edification and so we are not caught unaware.

  7. Russ says:

    I wonder just how many people; how many Christians go through life reading the Bible, studying God’s Word, enjoying fellowship with one another, enjoying Life in Christ really truly understand the end times or even desire to do so because they are ready no matter what we think is going to happen or how it is going to happen. I guess i just miss the point of “trying to get it right” when it comes to the end times. Just live. When it happens, it happens — ready or not.

    • 2 Peter 3:16 should help you concerning the point of “trying to get it right”. Peter tells us concerning eschatology that those who don’t get it right, “twist the scripture, as they always do.” So the study of end times is not exclusive to itself, but an indicator of concerning all Scripture.

    • O2LlikeHim says:

      My friends become weary of my saying, “but what about the little old lady who has no television or radio, no way to get to church … but she owns a copy of the Word of God, and she has submitted her life to the Lord Jesus Christ … and she reads the Word daily, prays, and trusts Jesus completely.” She is no theologian, she does not get into discussions about when she will join Him … she just knows she will. She doesn’t worry about pre, mid, post tribulation … She just reads His Word and knows she will be with Him. No high hype womens conferences, no glitzy, fancy “teachers” … Just Jesus and herself with love, trust, faith as inspiration. She knows, because she knows Him.

      I see that sometimes we need to let go of what all these teachers say this or that means; let go of buying somebody’s book or study guide every time we want to study the Word;
      let go of fancy words and “deep” new thought …. Let go of all that and get into the Word. Didnt God promise His Holy Spirit to give us understanding? For those who are truly God’s children understanding is given. Of course I know there are those who will pick up the bible, read some passage and proclaim god has shown them the meaning .. and they can be outlandish in their teaching … but these are not led by the Living God!
      We need (and desire) to be led by God to His Truth.

      There is so much deception … WITHIN the “church” as well as without. I am grieved by the lack of discernment among those who claim to serve the Lord. Who was that famous salesman who could sell anything to anybody? Ahhh .. the enemy of God you say! We cannot blame him for everything though, because it is the individual who chooses to accept or reject what is fed them.

  8. Rachel Howington says:

    Thank you for this article. I definitely agree and pray for many to begin to understand and prepare for the days we will go through and to be ready to stand.

  9. Dr. Steve Griffin says:

    I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree with your assessment and exposition of what the Word clearly says concerning the “rapture”..!! I’ve been walking with the Lord for some time, have been through Seminary, and have endured the fervent teaching of Pre-Trib stuff for many many years. Isn’t it amazing that the truth is RIGHT there in His Word!!!! Amazing!! And I agree it IS a very important issue for the current Body of Christ. In fact, it may be yet another very clever scheme of Satan in that : What if many, many Christians were looking for the ‘Great Out’ when persecution and martyrdom hits? Might there be “a great falling away? !!! ? …Yep….. So it behooves us to really stand our ground on this issue! We are definitely definitely in the last days…..May the Lord give us the grace to “overcome him by the Blood of the Lamb, the word of our testimony and that we do not love our lives even unto death!” Maranatha LORD!!! …….. Dr. Steve Griffin

    • Thank you for your comment!!! Maranatha!!!

      • For me my journey to understand and face all of my pre-trib questions began almost 4 years ago. I was introduced to a book by David Pawson. At first I was so angry that I put it down for 10 days but knew God was directing me. I finished facing the possibilities that maybe my questions weren’t being answered because I was forcing the answers into questions that begged to differ. I set aside every book and for the next 2 years of retirement I literally read Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation along with Mathew and Thess. over and over. I know that PRE-WRATH is what the word teaches without any doubt. I have come through this with such peace and a knowing that Holy Spirit will teach any of God’s children truth as they read, and study and pray for discernment. I don’t talk about it either but have watched God open up more and more minds to this truth as the days go by. My prayer is for all of His own to be ready for whatever comes. God Bless your diligence to do this article and and the outline. Wonderful!!!

  10. TeachX3 says:

    Have spent some time browsing your blog today… when I was reading this, I just kept thinking “spot on!” and “finally someone ‘out there’ that believes as I do!” etc… I want to thank you, for taking the time to write this in a way that others can understand, but mostly, for the LOVE that I *hear* as I read through it… Glory to God!!

  11. Laura says:

    Like you, I go to a pre-trib church and first learned about end times when I got saved many years ago. I was fascinated by the end times prophecies and read everything I could find – much I discarded, such as Preterism. My ‘gut’ and brain, as well as my understanding and simple reading of God’s Word on these matters lead me to the same conclusion; pre-wrath rapture sounds much closer to the truth than all of the others. I do allow that I could be wrong because I don’t find much simplistic in God’s Word – I am an accountant so parables and prophecy is difficult for me (2+2=4 I understand! 🙂 ). The thing that leaves me befuddled is: Who will be alive to be ruled over by the Saints in the Millennial Kingdom? That is the question I have yet to find an answer for. Maybe somebody else has the answer to this? Please share as I have wondered for years now. Needless to say, being in a pre-trib rapture church leaves me nobody to discuss this with. God bless and thank you for sharing.

    • Kris says:

      Hi Laura,
      It is my understanding…after a lot of research on the pre-wrath position, that there will still be some who hear the gospel proclaimed AFTER the rapture of the church, by the faithful 144,000 Jews as well as an angel the proclaims the eternal gospel. Those whose hearts have not been hardened will come to know Jesus Christ as their savior during this time…and they…along with the 144,000 Jews, will enter the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies. There must be people still saved after the rapture, otherwise there would be no need for trumpet or bowl judgments. The judgments come in hopes that people will repent and accept Christ. Although most will blaspheme God’s name and refuse to repent toward the very last of the judgments, (probably those who have accepted the Mark of the Beast)…those who have not yet received the mark can still repent and if they survive and they (along with the 144,000) will enter the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies. I hope this answers your question.

  12. Twocorone8b11 says:

    THANK YOU for stating so well what I, too, found by, um…. reading the Word! And I respect and appreciate that you do not see the need to shove it down anyone’s throat because the truth is, NONE of us get to decide when it happens (if we deduce wrongly.) So many people get angry with those who have a different viewpoint- as if they would somehow prevent/speed up His return by said viewpoint. (I actually have heard a talk show host repeatedly say of those of a different viewpoint, “They would take away my Blessed Hope!” Um, no one can take away your salvation from you, regardless of when HE decides you go to heaven. MY Blessed Hope is eternity with Him- not missing out on troubles here for goodness’ sake.) I look forward to meeting you one day in eternity. Shalom.

  13. Tim says:

    Hey, some good points there. It reminded me of my eschatology class when I was the oy student in the AG college that didn’t hold to a pre-trib view. The plain reading of scripture clearly teaches the endurance of the saints amidst great tribulation. Later on I have found some great teaching by David Pawson on this and many other topics. Check out all his audio/video resources at davidpawson.org.
    Cheers mate!

  14. A true Christian, a possessor and not just a professor, is constantly looking for the truth in modern day productions about our Savior. When we hear that there was going to be another movie about the life of our Savior, Jesus Christ, it is only natural that we want it to present the truth and nothing but the truth. My wife and I attended the recent Movie produced by Roma Downey and her husband Mark. She liked the movie. I felt somewhat uncomfortable because so much was left out and so much was added. I decided to research Roma Downey and her Mark’s religious beliefs. I stumbled across your insightful article in the “The Last Hitchhiker.” Your article essentially confirmed what I already felt in my heart. Many of our Christian friends were undecided about attending the movie. I sent them an e-mail, outlining Roma Downey’s past experience with New Agers, and here recent praise of President Obama. She stated that he is a “Good Christian.” I upset several of our Christian friends with the information I presented in the e-mail. I am now requesting that they read your informative views on “The Last Hitchhiker.” I hope you do not mind. God bless and keep doing what the LORD leads you to do.

  15. Kris says:

    I agree with your Pre-Wrath view for exactly the same reasons you pointed out in the article above. I also was raised a Pre-Tribberand I also go to a Pre-Trib church that I respect and love…I just don’t agree with them on this. It is very hard to find churches that believe in a pre-wrath position, but it is growing. Jacob Prasch, from Moriel Ministries, is a wonderful resource for very sound doctrine. You can find a lot of his teachings and videos on YouTube. He also holds to a Pre-Wrath view, but believes that it’s not something that should be dividing Christians. His fear, and it’s a valid fear, is that the churches that teach the Pre-Trib rapture view are NOT preparing the body of Christ for the coming Tribulation and persecution from Antichrist, because they assume they’ll be whisked away before anything bad happens. Unfortunately, it is one of the biggest deceptions that true believers face today and the spirit of Antichrist is behind it. He wants the church to be caught off guard. The fictional books, The Left Behind Series is false in it’s assumptions that much of the world will repent and finally have their eyes opened…hence get a second chance…after the rapture if they’ve already heard the gospel. By then, their hearts will be hardened and they will blaspheme God when he starts pouring out his wrath upon mankind. However, keep in mind that the 144,000 Jews are still proclaiming the gospel and so is an angel, who proclaims the eternal gospel…so obviously there must be those who hear the gospel for the first time and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Many will die or be martyred, but those who survive to the end will be the ones populating the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies. The Pre-Wrath position is NOT something people want to hear, because it means we have to go through much of the Tribulation….which is NOT the Wrath of God. You are correct. 🙂 Thank you for holding to your view, regardless of it’s unpopularity among fellow churches, pastors and believers. God Bless.

    • Thank you for your comment. I do know of Jacob Prasch, from Moriel Ministries. I just listened to a youtube video of his 3 weeks ago. I like him alot.

      I am surprised to hear that he believes in a pre-wrath rapture! Pleasantly surprised!!!

      I don’t know of any churches that teach pre-wrath. It seems you either have pre-trib rapture churches or preterist and amillennial churches. I have more in common with pre-trib churches as far as how we see a coming anti-Christ and all.

      I am going to go read what Jacob Prasch says about his views. Thank you for sharing.

      • Kris says:

        You are welcome. Jacob makes his views on the Pre-Wrath rapture (he prefers to call it Intra-Tribulational), in his book “Shadows of the Beast”. It’s a very wordy, technical book, but extremely interesting with regards to the Antichrist and False Prophet. He is adamant that the Church will absolutely be here to identify the Antichrist and there is no secret rapture. Jacob believes the rapture occurs between the 6th and 7th seals of Revelation, but admits that most of the churches he speaks at and pastors he considers his “brothers in Christ”disagree with him on this. He still considers them wonderful men of faith, including the late Chuck Smith, and doesn’t believe it should be divisive…even though he firmly holds to his Pre-wrath view.

        • Jo says:

          Kris, “Shadows of the Beast” is a great book. Have you read “The Dilemma of Laodicea”? Excellent book! Godly men who stand for Gods truth and do not compromise with man need our prayers.

        • Beth says:

          Kris, I believe that Jesus will come at the 6th seal too, but that also lines up with the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl. This is called post-tribulation rapture, versus pre-wrath. Each collection of trumpets, seals and bowls are not following one another (as pre-trib teaches) rather, they lay on top of one another. They do not all necessarily line up together (2nd trumpet, 2nd seal, 2nd bowl do not line up etc.) but the 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl do line up. So those that believe Jesus returns prior to any of the seven bowls of wrath being poured out are usually called pre-wrath while those that believe Jesus comes back after the seven bowls are poured out are called post-tribulation. Not sure how Jacob describes himself but those are how the terms themselves have come about. Thank you.

          • Hi Beth, I was wondering if you could recommend any information, or websites that I could research your beliefs. I am really interested in how other people line up the judgments of revelation. Thank you so much for your comments.

      • Twocorone8b11 says:

        Our rabbi back in Colorado (we now live in another state but listen via podcast) doesn’t use the term pre-wrath but he says if we think we’re gonna get whisked outta here before things get bad, we are deluded. (He is a good ol’ cowboy guy who calls ’em like he sees ’em. 🙂 ) He teaches pre-wrath without calling it that, I guess. As does our Torah teacher, too. (We are Messianic Jewish. I keep forgetting many believers at this point in my post might be going….huh…?) And I hear more and more people teaching/believing/understanding this (pre-wrath) position, as more and more people are reading the Bible for themselves. Our rabbi back home said once, “People will read a book about the Book, they will go to a conference, watch a video, listen to a podcast, spend hours surfing the internet about the book… but they don’t READ THE BOOK!” He always taught us how first and foremost we MUST read The Word. There is NO substitute for that. And when we read it (not cherry picked verses, but actually sit and read) it is amazing how things start to make sense. It’s just interesting how very many people from such a wide variety of places are coming to this realization seemingly around the same time. This next part may or may not seem like a non-sequitur but I think it’s related to end times- I don’t know if you all are aware but the Messianic movement is exploding in the Land (Israel). Just in the last few years, there are WAY more Israelis coming to belief in Yeshua as our Messiah than just a few years earlier (but so many more to go.) Just a decade ago things that seemed impossible are happening now…

        • Thank you for sharing. That is so encouraging. It is a bit of confirmation to hear that other people have come to the same conclusions. And I am also very encouraged to hear of the harvest the Lord is doing among His children ❤ God bless you!!!!

      • Jo says:

        Hi, Read Jacob Prasch’s book “Shadows of the Beast” when you get time please. It goes into great detail as to why he believes the identity of the coming antichrist will be revealed to the faithful church. Thank you for your blog. (2 Thesssalonians 2)

  16. dclough says:

    This was encouraging to read. I’ve been feeling the same way as you when I read about the end times in the Bible. For our family devotions we recently read that passage in Matthew that you quoted and I was telling my wife and children that to be honest, we don’t know exactly how it’s “supposed” to happen. But we need to keep going back to the Bible, keep praying, and be discerning when things do start to happen. Just like the faithful in Jesus’ time didn’t know exactly what to expect when the Messiah came. Those who were set in their beliefs of how they thought the Messiah was “supposed” to be (a deliverer from Rome for example, which could be a legitimate belief given different interpretations of some Old Testament passages), they missed him. But those who studied scripture and prayed (like Simeon and Anna in the Temple) recognized him as the Messiah and saw how he fulfilled so many Old Testament prophecies, even though he may not have fit their personal expectations. So I’m trying not to be too rigid in my beliefs of how future events are “supposed” to unfold, but I’m also trying to study God’s Word and get to know Christ better so I can be discerning if I get the privilege of being part of that last generation! It’s exciting! Thank you for your blog.

    • I love your comment. I love how you related those who just humbly rely on the Bible are like Simeon and Anna in the temple, getting to see the Messiah. The Lord does bless those who genuinely seek Him. Thank you for sharing. God bless.

  17. Linda Herhuth says:

    I found your blog from an article of yours I read about the new movie, “Son of God” which I totally agree with. I also have attended pre-trib Baptist churches all my life but recently, like you, through the study of scripture, have come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a “secret” pre-tribulational rapture as I have always been taught. I had not put together everything you have said in this blog, though, about the correlation between the seals and Jesus’ predictions, or the designation that Christians will be taken out of the world between the 6th and 7th seals. Thank you so much for your great exegesis. I will now take what you have said and do some more study for myself!

  18. Anonymous says:

    I was raised with the Pre-Trib rapture…it was 9/11 that sent me to the Word of God regarding end times, and there I found the truth written clearly. While reading through the posts I saw the one that mentioned the Feasts of the Lord, and yes..the Spring Feasts were fulfilled by Jesus at His first coming. I also believe that His second coming will fulfill the Fall Feasts. Rosh Hashanna (Feasts of Trumpets) Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement), and Feast of Tabernacles. Related to another post where I mentioned traditional holidays, The Feasts of Lord were established, and still remain..not just for the Jewish, just as the Sabbath was established by Jehovah, and still remains. It was the Roman Catholic church that changed the day to Sunday, which was the day the Romans worshiped their sun god…. I have been studying, and praying about this for sometime, perhaps you are interested as well. A good resource for information can be found at endtime pilgrim.org. ( I am very cautious about any information that I read, or watch.)

    Blessings in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    • Thank you for commenting. I love what you are saying and I totally agree that the Biblical Feasts represent the prophetic events. Marvin Rosenthal has a great book about the Feasts of the Lord too. Thank you for sharing. God bless.

      • Meadowlark says:

        Speaking of Biblical Feasts, are you aware that the SIGN of the BLOOD MOON appears in two feasts in 2014 AND two feasts in 2015? These two years are THE ONLY TIMES THIS OCCURS. Red moon,black sun at two of the HOLY DAYS OF GOD, and ONLY in these two years! Time to LOOK UP! MEADOWLARK

        • ALamb says:

          I am concerned with this ‘four blood moons’ teaching. I have been aware of the teaching since Mark Biltz introduced it in 2008. I have studied the scripture intensely regarding end-times and there is only ‘one’ blood moon that is mentioned in a few places. According to scripture the ‘blood, moon, and stars prophecy’ takes place *immediately after* the tribulation of those days. This is the *only* blood moon mentioned. In fact there is no such term ‘blood moon’ in astronomy. Look it up, it doesn’t exist. This term ‘blood moon’ has been applied to these tetrad moons by prophecy teachers only recently. Part of the actual prophecy involves the stars no longer giving their light, something that does not happen due to an eclipse. Also, a solar eclipse (sun not giving her light) only happens during the astronomically defined new moon (no moon visible) during the day. How can the moon turn to blood when there is no moon visible during the solar eclipse? There is also a great earthquake that takes place at the same time. In my research, I realized that the darkening of the sky during Yeshua’s time on the cross was NOT caused by anything other than God (impossible to have a solar eclipse during the full moon during passover). I believe the darkening of the sun in the prophecy will also be caused by YHVH at that time, not by an eclipse. Something may or may not happen during the years of 2014-2015…something is always happening. I see this prophecy as something that will further the question Peter told us would be asked in the last days, “Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.” It will cause further doubt to the Lord’s return, a return that according to Hosea 5 and 6 will be two days (two thousand years) after the Messiah’s *return* to heaven. We still have a few years before that two thousand years is up. God bless.

  19. Amary Wagner says:

    I just found your blog today via A Cry for Justice and have been so edified by it! I was just setting out to compare the ‘earthly copy’ to the heavenly Tabernacle (discussed in Heb) and then I come across your discussion of it, and so on, for at least another 4 areas of study and gifting!

    Soon after God disabused me of post-trib understanding, He led me to an excellent site by a wonderful Christian lady. She has done quite a bit of ‘what does the Bible actually say about’ studies, and I think you’ll find her studies on ‘Birthpangs of the Coming’ and ‘Prophetic & Endtimes’ incredibly helpful and confirmatory to your studies.

    http://www.birthpangs.org/articles-index.html

    God has shown me some things in my studies as well, and I am happy to share them if you are interested (thought it will likely make much more sense after reviewing Tricia’s studies above). Just send me an email when or if you’d like.

    God bless you!
    Amary

  20. Anonymous says:

    Dear TLH,
    I recently came across your blog and this entry jumped out at me. I have been also been carefully studying my Bible for MYSELF and not just taking as truth everything that comes from the pulpit. What a blessing it has proven to be!

    I have come to the same conclusion as you in regards to the matter of Pre-Wrath, not Pre-Trib. Interestingly enough, I have been studying the Sermon on the Mount and really pondered on The Beatitudes of Matthew chapter 5. It occurred to me that this wasn’t just a list in random order, but that it is a progressive list. I mainly thought of that because I found myself picking and choosing the ones I liked and thought that applied to me! But there is obviously a double blessing and emphasis on the last Beatitude –the one about being persecuted, and with very strong wording (i.e. “exceedingly glad”). I then noticed that in the first 4 Beatitudes there is a lack of something, ending with hungering and thirsting for RIGHTEOUSNESS, and the promise to be filled. The last four seem to reflect a life lived IN Righteousness, with it being the reason for being persecuted.
    Again, it appeared to me that one The Beatitudes builded up on each other. First we are blessed when we realized how filthy (“poor in spirit”). This is how we start on our pathway to “heaven” (v. 3). Once we realize our condition we “mourn” for our sins and life of rejection of Jesus Christ, and His forgiveness brings us “comfort” (v. 4). Being “meek” implies being submissive to the will of God, which seems like a natural progression. We “inherit the earth” because we have now accepted Him as our Father (v. 5). This breeds the desire to have the heart of Christ, and we “hunger and thirst for (His) righteousness”, and we are “filled” (v. 6). Only once we are filled are we able to give (can’t give what we don’t have). The Fruits of the Spirit are a natural result. We are “merciful” (v.7), “pure in heart” (v. 8), and “peacemakers” and are certainly God’s children (v. 9). We love stopping here. We love picking and choosing the easiest way out. Tribulation? Persecution? Hard times? Nope. A rapture message sounds very appealing (especially for me, since I’m a wimp!), BUT there is one last and final step. The devil hates seeing a righteous life, and he will certainly attack. But the 8th Beatitude includes a “reward” (v. 12; Rev. 22:12) which can only come after a test…a judgement. And the biggest reason for our persecution (like Job’s) is for the the vindication of God’s character to the universe (it is not all about us after all). It is the fullness of our expression of our love to Him (I think every true Christian will endure persecution of some sort). Interestingly enough, this seems to end the pathway to “heaven” (v.10) -the beginning of which was in the 1st Beatitude.

    Furthermore, if going backwards: we are not ready to be persecuted unless we are peacemakers…b/c if we’re not peacemakers and we are persecuted, we are going to turn around also become persecutors! (we’d want revenge, etc). You can’t be a peacemaker if you don’t have the right motives of a pure heart. You can’t have a pure heart if you aren’t merciful (don’t forgive?). You can’t have true mercy without being filled with God’s righteousness…so on and so forth.

    The Laodicean church of Rev. 3…the last day church….thinks they don’t need anything (v.17). They are not ready for the events of the last days, because they haven’t embarked on the previously mentioned process.

    But those who are truly the “sons of God” will stand the difficult times!

    Oh wow! I wrote so much…my apologies! You probably already new all that. I just love seeing all the new connections!

    Thank you,
    –SK

  21. Adam says:

    Let me start by saying this is a good posting and as brothers and sisters in the Lord we should always agree to disagree, except when it comes to the essentials of our faith: Salvation(Winning the Lost), the cross, the resurrection, and who Jesus is. I am so glad that the riff between you and your friend has been healed! I have been a Christian since 1969 and have gone back and forth between, pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib rapture. For me, I still come back to the pre-trb view and here are 3 reasons why I believe that way.

    1. 2 Thes is dealing with two events, the rapture(Coming of Jesus Christ) and the Day of the Lord(The Tribulation). We know Paul wrote 2 Thes:1-4, because many of the believers in Thessalonica had thought they had missed the rapture, so Paul was trying to assure them that the Great Tribulation won’t come until after the anti-Christ is revealed and that they had not missed the rapture, as many had believed. So I believe the anti-Christ will be revealed after the rapture.

    2. The Bible speaks of 2 kinds of tribulation, the tribulation that satan is heaping upon the world, and the Great Tribulation from God that is yet to come. As a Child of God, we can be assured because of the cross, God will not pour out His Great Tribulation on the Bride of Christ. I can bank on that and not be fearful that He will, otherwise why the cross of Christ.

    3. As God’s kids we have to be in His word, walk by the power of the Spirit of God, and stand for riotousness, so we can stand against our enemy come rain, shine or tribulation. So many of us in the church are walking in our own strength and when tribulation comes now or tomorrow we can’t stand.
    God Help Us!

    • Agree says:

      I am so sorry, Adam… Just look at what you said in point #2 through the filter of what is happening to Christians right now around the world. Is this the Devil’s doing? No, God is sovereign. Please note that 2 Tes deals with 2 events at the same time. One is the “Lord’s coming” AND the other is “our gathering unto Him”. Yes, the plain wording is the Antichrist will be revealed before BOTH of these events. That being said… Isn’t the Antichrist revealed already? Seven hills, prostituting herself with the kings of the earth, golden cup, scarlet and purple… I headed the Lord’s warning and came out of her. I know her very well. What else do we need? I benefited greatly from the book The two Babylons by Hislop.

  22. Anonymous says:

    ABSOLUTE TRUTH…………….PRE-WRATH…
    THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR POST…
    Had a prophetic dream the night I was saved…
    saw several historical moments in history…
    9-11, chinese invade California…
    New world Order..
    and the moon turn to blood..
    then raptured…
    did not know the WORD OF GOD..
    but then he confirmed it ..just like you stated…
    thank you for coming forward..
    the church must prepare to undergo persecution…
    harmful to think we will be taken before…
    they chance not being ready….
    but the ELECT will be as He will revealed to them their appointed time to
    their cross before they are taken to Glory…
    blessings.

  23. rosie says:

    I have a question. If you are right on pre-wrath and the anti-Christ is on the scene, will Christians be forced to take the mark of the beast or be martyred for refusing and how will we survive if not able to buy and sell ?

  24. Agree says:

    Amen. This is exactly what “happened” to me. One Spirit… One truth… He is faithful. I was taught lies in the name of The Lord. If we search him with all our hearts, we WILL find Him. Pre trib might be a tool of the devil to disillusion Christians at the most crucial time, when they are sure this is the time for Him to come. They may figure, well, it was a lie. He is not coming, and fall prey to the devil. ???

  25. path says:

    Agree with article. Is traditional church view prior to 1830 and Darby. The future is filled with Jesus. Maranatha!

  26. O2LlikeHim says:

    Hiker, I am glad to have found your blog, and this post. I too am surrounded by pre-tribers; there has been so much to lead them that way! One day reading the Word I found this passage in Thessalonians and said to myself, “Whoa Nellie! This is NOT teaching pre-trib rapture!”

    I wonder how many, having been deceived by the pre-trib rapture teaching, will turn away when it is made absolutely clear that teaching is error.

    It seems to me it is possible that fear is behind that teaching. Fear of having to go thru such hell on earth. But if the Lord’s closest followers, the Apostles, were tortured and tormented .. scorned, murdered, dipped in boiling oil, hung upside down, beheaded … what makes us think we should not endure the same?

    Or is it Western thought that rejects the idea that we may get hurt? I mean, our Brothers and Sisters in China, India, Iraq, Syria … many, many places over this earth … they are undergoing torture for the Sake of Christ! Why must we be so arrogant as to think we might escape?

    What I hear around me is misused, misquoted passages taken out of context to convince people of erroneous teaching, when, if one stays in the Word, one can only come to the PRE WRATH understanding.

    This gives us even stronger reason to be out there taking His Truth to this lost and hurting world … because the opportunity will end.

    • Tim says:

      Jeremiah,

      I don’t know what you mean by “One small step”, but your analysis of this article on your website struck me as a little “dismissive”. Referring to Daniel’s 70th week as the Tribulation Period is a common misconception among Christians, but it doesn’t overshadow the main concepts that Last Hiker was trying to bring out.

      Plus, if one reads the Word without commentary … just taking it as it presents itself in a chronological sequence of events, “the puzzle pieces DO just fall into place”. You don’t need a hammer!

      I don’t know of anyone in the last 50 years (and before) that has presented a fool-proof version of an end-time scenario. And, most sincerely, I would be interested in reading your version with an accompanying “definition of terms” … we can all learn from one another if the truth we have (or think we have) is presented in a sincere, respectful way!

      In Christ,
      Tim

  27. Tim says:

    WOW! I just finished posting a comment on your John MacArthur post … so, thought I’d browse the rest of your blog and came across this! You’ve blown me away!

    Why? Because you “nailed” exactly the end time scenario I’ve been preaching for decades (I’m 64)! Your table comparing Rev to Matt is a masterpiece! In fact, I just sent that comparison (in my own words) to Jeremiah Jameson’s blog a couple of days ago!

    It’s so refreshing to finally run across some like-minded Christians … I’ve been in a “fellowship desert” for some time now. I live alone and am “retired” from ministry (if that’s possible). Somewhere along the way, Christianity (especially in America) has taken a dangerous turn … making it extremely difficult to find true fellowship with other Christians centered around the Word of God (as spoken by John the Apostle in 1John 1:1-4)!

    God Bless You,
    Tim

  28. Tim says:

    PS: If you follow the scenario closely enough, you can “discover” the sign (singular … not general) of His coming. That’s what the disciples specifically asked Jesus in Matthew 24: What is … “the sign of thy coming”! By the time He finishes, He’s told them “when”, but not “what”!

    When will be the sign of His coming? He says in Matthew 24:30, “And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:” When is that?

    “Immediately AFTER … the powers of heaven shall be shaken:” (Matthew 24:29) but BEFORE “… all the tribes of the earth mourn”! So, what happens between those two events:

    You have to go to your “parallel” in Rev 6 … specifically verse 14:

    “AND THE HEAVEN DEPARTED AS A SCROLL WHEN IT IS ROLLED TOGETHER; AND EVERY MOUNTAIN AND ISLAND WERE MOVED OUT OF THEIR PLACES.” This will be the SIGN of His coming … and, until you see it, He’s not coming!

    And THEN, like He said in Matthew 24:30, “shall all the tribes of the earth mourn”. Why? Because, “…the great day of his WRATH is come:” (Rev 6:17)

    Blessings!

  29. The Lord lead me to the same exact conclusion. It’s right there in the bible, 2 Thess. 2, but they don’t see it because they have been blinded by all those ‘helpful’ commentaries and ‘scholarly’ interpretations. I totally agree, we will suffer and die for our testimony. You know what’s interesting? Even the songs in church are misleading. It’s a network of apostasy. Songs that mention that we overcame by the 1) blood of the Lamb, 2) word of our testimony, but they LEAVE out 3) they loved not their lives unto the death!!! Rev. 12;11. The pretrib rapture is to deceive so the church won’t see the antichrist for who he is, will follow after him in his worldwide ‘revival,’ and won’t think they are expected to die for the Lord. The truth? We will be hated by all for His namesake, even IN the church, and discernment people like us already are hated by the apostate harlot church system for preaching the truth. We will be martyred for our stand and for not compromising, and those that murder us will think they are doing God a service. Rapture is prewrath like you said, sometime before the big boom of 2 Peter 3.

    • Martin says:

      Actually the whole ‘futurist’ interpretation of the ‘end times’ is probably the worst deception in the church today! To Jesus, the writers of NT and the the audience to were listening to Jesus and the audience of the NT the ‘end times’ and ‘last days’ ONLY EVER meant the end of the Old Covenant and Full transition into the New, not events pertaining to events at the ‘end of the world’ all the above verses you quote were talking about the martyrdom and persecution leading up to and including AD70 All of the olivet discourse and 98% of Rev were fulfilled in AD70 is terrible Bible interpretation and deception to suggest overwise

      • Thank you for sharing Martin, but one of the main reasons that I disagree with you is that even though the early church was brutally persecuted–the prophecies were never fully fulfilled. The “man of sin” never sat in the holy place saying he is God. Nero, who most people think was the “AntiChrist” never even stepped foot in the city of Jerusalem, let alone the temple. Also, we do not see the bowl or trumpet judgments. The only way you can hold the historical view is if you ignore HUGE passages of scripture.

      • Beth says:

        Martin, you said, ” 98% of Rev were fulfilled in AD70 is terrible Bible interpretation and deception to suggest overwise”. Respectfully, that is impossible since the Revelation was not even written by John until the late 90’s…well past 70AD. John was not writing history, but a future revelation that has not yet taken place. Daniel wrote about it too (Daniel and Revelation line up in many places). These future events have yet to take place. God bless each of us who follows our Savior, Jesus.

  30. Rich says:

    I came here to read about the Whosoevers (very disturbing) and found this article. I agree with you that there will not be a pre-trib rapture. And to add to all you wrote, I think that “the apostasy” of 1Thess 2:3 will be a mass falling away of dissapointed christians (yes little c is correct, the ones who the weeds choke out) who satan will have convinced that there is no God because the rapture did not happen. And your approach to exegesis is great, I agree with Karl. Let the Word speak for itself.

  31. Robert Burke says:

    What’s Wrong with This Coin?
    By Robert Winkler Burke
    Book #3 of In That Day Teachings
    Copyright 10/3/08 http://www.inthatdayteachings.com

    What’s wrong with this coin?
    This dark copper I have here,
    One side has the face mask of greed,
    The other, the face mask of fear.

    Heads is the face mask of Prosperity:
    Give to get anything.
    Tails is the face mask of Rapture:
    Fear missing the King.

    I got this coin from being partners,
    With preachers on TV,
    They sell me one lie or the other,
    I buy fear or greed.

    But this coin buys nothing in heaven,
    It’s not the coin of that realm,
    Instead it’s the coin of lie making,
    Where deception rules helm.

    Fear and greed are two spirits,
    Both not of God.
    Funny, I got them from churches,
    Few think it odd.

    Some love fear but loath greed,
    Hating the prosperity creed,
    Others love greed but loath fear,
    Thinking rapture is bad feed.

    Fear and greed are just two faces,
    Of Satan’s same wretched coin,
    Fear and greed can’t get you to heaven,
    They come from Satan’s loin.

    I’ve never heard a prosperity preacher,
    Who didn’t believe in the rapture,
    I’ve never heard a rapture preacher,
    Who my money didn’t need capture.

    Fear and greed, greed and fear,
    Emotional boom and bust,
    Blessed are the courageous poor in spirit,
    In God of heaven they trust.

    Without worshipping fear and greed doctrines,
    We can worship God in spirit and truth,
    Jesus comes quickly to indwell such clean souls,
    In whom devil lies and spirits do forsooth.

    So if you want to truly miss the King,
    Worship fear or greed,
    Support prosperity and rapture ministries,
    Your money they need.

    They need your hard earned money to broadcast,
    Lies all over the place,
    They are driven to keep Christ from indwelling,
    The whole human race.

    But oh, how preachers and people do much love,
    Doctrines of rapture and prosperity,
    They keep hell busy minting fear and greed coinage,
    For their hell on earth machine.

    So what’s wrong with this fear and greed coin,
    With smiling or frowning mask face?
    Nothing, the coin separates truth from lie lovers,
    And who will go to what place.

  32. Lee says:

    The prosecution is already happening I’v been under attack over 40 years

  33. Anonymous says:

    Great resource if you have not read it: The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church by Marvin Rosenthal. Thank you for your article and courage to follow the truth.
    May the Lord Bless you and keep you in His peace
    Carolyn

  34. Barb says:

    I am no longer a pre-triber because I just read my Bible. One thing I’ve found that I disagree is your calling the church the elect from Matthew 24:31. This verse corresponds directly to Revelation 7:1-8

  35. Martin says:

    In reply to your reply thanks let me try and deal with your comments. First the dating of Rev those who date Rev late in the AD 90’s mostly use the testimony of Iranius who dated it then. The problem with this is Iranious has been proven to be notoriously inaccurate with dates, he said for instance the ministry of Jesus lasted 40 years! Most Bible scholars now dismiss his dating of Rev to be completely wrong and date it between AD 64-68. John himself even dates it for us! he says ‘5 kings have been one is and one is yet to come but will only last a little while’ Historically there were 5 emperors before Nero (5 kings have been) Nero was the current emperor (one is) and the one following Nero lasted barely 6 months (one yet to come lasting a little while. So John dates his own letter in the time of Nero.

    As for you comments about ‘antichrist’ there is no mention of ‘antichrist’ in the whole of Rev. There is no scriptural link between the ‘beast’ being ‘the antichrist’ that is an assumption made by some people that does not exist in scripture. In all the teaching about ‘antichrist’ in John’s letters he makes it clear that ‘antichrist’ is not a person but a spirit. The phrase ‘the antichrist’ doesn’t exist in the original texts it was a 15c insertion trying to probe the pope was ‘the antichrist’ In addressing ‘antichrist’ John was specifically dealing with false teaching and heresies that were arising in his day. He said that many ‘antichrists’ (heresies) had arisen in his day. In fact he uses the rising of so many ‘antichrists’ as proof that the ‘end of the age’ (AD 70) was close which of course it was when he was writing (not 2000 years + in the future.)

    It is very easy to identify the ‘man of sin’ if you read the history around the events of AD 70 ( again because ‘antichrist’ the Beast and ‘man of sin’ are not the same person as ‘antichrist is not a person.) There ‘man of sin’ was a guy called John Levi who did declare himself to be God and he set up a throne in the temple. If you take the bowl and trumpet judgements figuratively like in all Biblical apocalyptic writing, you can see they were all present in AD 70.

    I assume that you have come to your conclusions knowing that when Jesus, the writers of the NT and the audience to which they were written used the phrases ‘end times’ ‘end of the age’ ‘last days’ ‘day of judgement’ ‘day of the Lord’ they ONLY EVER meant the end of the Old Covenant (AD 70) it never. ever referred to the ‘end of the world’ or end of human history. I also assume you know that in Rev John was describing events specific to Israel/Jerusalem not global events? we know this because the word translated as ‘world’ in most translations is the word ‘ge’ not the word ‘kosmos.’ In most of his writing in the gospels and letters John uses the word ‘kosmos’ meaning the whole world eg for God so loved the world (kosmos)…However and this is vital to understanding Rev, in Rev he switches to the word ‘ge’ which means a narrow or specific geographic location and in the Bible nearly always refers to Israel/Jerusalem. So the plagues deaths etc being described in Rev are not global, world affecting events but ones only affecting Jerusalem/Israel. So when he says when a 3rd or a 4th of the world dies due to a ‘judgement’ or wrath, it is not a 3rd of the whole world’s population but just of ‘Israel/Jerusalem and history shows this is exactly what happened in AD 70. It is amazing how accurate Jesus’s prdictions in the olivet discourse were ( and he did of course say that everything he said would be fulfilled within 40 years of him speaking.)…

    • Hi Martin 🙂

      You say, “I assume that you have come to your conclusions knowing that when Jesus, the writers of the NT and the audience to which they were written used the phrases ‘end times’ ‘end of the age’ ‘last days’ ‘day of judgement’ ‘day of the Lord’ they ONLY EVER meant the end of the Old Covenant (AD 70) it never. ever referred to the ‘end of the world’ or end of human history.”

      How do you then explain Matthew 24:27-31?

      27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

      29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

      “‘the sun will be darkened,
      and the moon will not give its light;
      the stars will fall from the sky,
      and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]
      30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

      I just don’t see how you could read the events of Matt. 24 and think it isn’t about the end of the world. They ask Him about the “end of the age” yes (as you interpret them to mean the Old Testament) but they also couple it with the second coming. “Tell us when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming AND the end of the age?”

      When you look at their question and the response of Christ. He doesn’t clearly distinguish the end of the age from His second coming– as the preterist view teaches. He combines them. If you were correct, then we would have historical reports of the skies rolling up like a scroll in AD 70. No one saw Jesus in Heaven in AD. 70.

      The preterist view doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t take into account all the prophesies in Daniel, Revelation, Matthew, Luke, the Minor Prophets, and Scripture as a whole. It also doesn’t take into account the fact that there has been worse tribulation SINCE AD 70, with the wars, mass genocides and the Holocaust of the Jews in the 20th Century. When Jesus clearly states that the tribulation in Matthew 24 would be the worst thing to ever happen on the planet. AD 70 wasn’t.

  36. Mek says:

    Hi again,

    Since finding your blog a couple of days ago, I’ve been reading various posts. I decided to read the above post to see what your views are on the End Times. I must say I was pleasantly surprised with it.

    A couple of years ago, I was writing curriculum for teens using Christian songs as a starting point for the lesson. For one lesson, I chose “When the Stars Burn Down” by Phillips, Craig, & Dean to discuss End Time Prophecy. Having been raised in a pre-Trib church, I was stunned (and a little confused) when I studied the various Scripture passages and was unable to separate the Rapture from His Second Coming. I even called my pastor who was unable to give a solid answer.

    You did a very nice job of explaining your position and backing it up with Scripture. I think your “pre-wrath” position is a very solid one. Thank you for sharing!

  37. Martin says:

    The reason why you can’t separate the rapture from the second coming is that there is no scriptural evidence for the secret disappearance of the church only that according to Thess we are either raised if dead or instantly join the Lord on His final return to earth. To understand end time prophecy you need firstly to understand the context of the passages and you need to read them as the original audience understood them. If you do this it becomes clear that the ‘2nd coming’ of Christ is not a physical bodily return of Christ but a coming in judgement to end forever the Old Covenant and the related religious temple worship systems to fully establish the New Covenant and to judge the generation that rejected and crucified Jesus.

    We know this because to the audience of the olivet discourse (Mt 24 etc) and the original audience of the NT including Rev the ‘end times’ ‘last days’ etc only ever meant the end of the Old and beginning of the New Covenants it never had anything to do with the ‘end of the world ‘ or end of human history. Also Jesus used figurative apocalyptic language taken from the OT which we are not familiar with but his audeince was fully aware of what it meant. So when Jesus talked about him ‘coming on the clouds in glory’ he was using a phrase used often used in the OT when God was bringing a judgement on a city or nation it was not a physical bodily event but picture language, so in Mt 24 Jesus was not telling them about his physical bodily return but his coming in judgement. In the same way when Jesus was describing events happening to the ‘sun moon and stars’ he is not talking about the physical sun moon and stars but again using language from the OT. The sun moon an stars represented a religious or political authority system, so again Jesus was saying that the ruling religious jewish leaders were coming under judgement and about to be destroyed. (If you read Is 13 exactly the same language is used about a judgement coming on Babylon if it had been talking about the physical sun moon and stars in this passage planet earth would have finished there and then so it couldn’t have meant the physical sun moon and stars!.) Taken all together all the ‘end times’ prophecy apart from the final, physical return of Christ were fulfilled in AD 70 when the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed and the generation that rejected Jesus were slaughtered. (Very interesting that 1.1 million jews were slaughtered in AD 70 yet one single Christian died, they recognised the ‘signs of the end times’ that Jesus described and fled for the mountains as Jesus advised them.

    • Hi Martin,

      Thank you so much for taking the time to share with my what you believe these verses to mean. I look at them differently than you. I take a much more literal approach to interpretation. I personally believe that those verses will literally be fulfilled. That Jesus will come in the sky with glory and that the sun will turn black, the moon to blood. It says it, I believe it. One of the reasons I choose to look at these passages literally is because the plagues on Egypt were not just poetic, but literal judgments. I believe we will see God’s judgments fall in a very literal and obvious way, when the time comes. I also, do not believe in a secret rapture that will happen before these things take place (we totally agree on that). The thing about 2 Thes. 2, is that it says, “and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” verses 3-4. This never happened in AD 70. Nero was not the Anti-Christ, and he never sat in the temple of God saying that he was “god”–he never even entered the city of Jerusalem. Anyways, Thank you for explaining your points. But I have a preterist friend, and we have talked endlessly about these differences and we just agree to disagree. 🙂

  38. Martin says:

    Paul has to reassure the Thessalonians that the y hadn’t missed the ‘2nd coming’ of Christ that it hadn’t happened already. If it had been a bodily physical return that everyone would see surely they wouldn’t had missed it!

  39. vickidiane says:

    Excellent job on pointing out your beliefs and supporting them thoroughly with the written word of our God! I have been a Christian since 1985 but admit, like so many others, that I always had these nagging doubts and questions that manifested and made their homes in the back of my mind. Of course Satan surely has much to do with that! Regardless, by watching a few YouTube videos several months ago from a few different internationally recognized theologians, those ever nagging doubts and questions in the back of my head were instantly answered and I can honestly say that not a single spec of doubt remains about the truth of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. My walk with the Lord became a million times tighter that very moment and it was easily seen by my wife, friends and colleagues since then with my daily walk with God.

    Since then, however, I have noticed how so much of the Church (worldwide) is not only asleep, but literally comatose. Making matters more difficult, is that my wife is disabled and has made actually attending a weekly Church service practically impossible. (Actually as I even write this entry, she is resting at our local hospital from a heart attack having had two stents placed and a few other places ballooned. Then, after bringing her home tomorrow, we have to prepare for a quadruple bypass open heart surgery within a month or so to fix the remaining blocked veins in the heart!). However, despite the extreme difficulties, we have managed to attend several local Churches over the past year but, even after overcoming the difficulty of attending, we find that the every Church so far preaches the same stories, are filled with people that fix their eyes on God on Sunday while at Church then for the rest of the week fix their eyes on their own lives, dreams, etc., Most importantly, NONE of these Churches ever want to teach eschatology (the study of the end times) from Revelation, Matthew 24, Daniel 9, etc. It seems to me that if we are going to push through the pain and disabilities to attend the Church, then the Church should be on page with our beliefs and it seems like none of the actually think he’s going to come back – or maybe simply not in their lifetime and thus why bother? Then to top that off, I see so many internationally recognized evangelists either preaching and pushing agendas that don’t correlate with the written word or they simply fall right in line with pushing the one world religion, and as you point out, teach misconstrued interpretations of the Bible rather than what it actually says.

    For these reasons, we have decided that we will not spend forever looking for a Church that actually preaches and teaches the word as written and teaches eschatology. Instead, we are trying to gather as many in our surrounding area as we can pull together and meet weekly (or more) going beyond the standard Church teachings and devote the vast majority of our time on eschatology, comparing the events of today around the world with the writings of Revelation, Matthew 24, Daniel 9, etc, and passing the word along to others as well as doing any and all good deeds for others that we possibly can. I have been a Christian since 1985 and my wife since 1977 and in spite of our setbacks and obstacles (trials from the Lord), He has blessed us exceedingly and its now our duty to share God’s many gifts to us with those in need.

    Sorry so long winded, but excellent job! Always stand up for yourself and your beliefs as it is your own personal salvation that is at stake. If others feel it is wrong, then there should be no reason not to have a proper debate and take each persons input, research it and make their own decision.

  40. Brother Jon says:

    I greatly appreciated the article. It was a lot of the same conclusions that I had come to after setting aside commentaries, bible school classes, and books that are commonly accepted. It does fit a lot better with scripture. The only thing I might disagree with, though of course I’ll certainly look at it more in consideration, is your belief about the Day of the Lord. I guess when I look at the scriptures I believe that what is laid out is a 7 year literal period of tribulation that culminates in a literal 24-hour day that Christ returns. Of course, the term is used to mean a period of time also like what you say. i just believe its primary reference is to the literal day of Christ’s return to the earth in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel.

    I’ll certainly prayerfully look at it again though. I think too often people divide over this issue too much–though the preterist view is quite dangerous. While we should all study the whole of scripture to not be ignorant of the times and seasons it’s not something that is listed to be so divisive about (regarding timing of His blessed return). Perhaps if people humbled themselves and prayed together for understanding more the Body of Christ would be in an altogether better state. Thanks for the blog.

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