Inside the KWVE Studios Friday November 21, 2014. Interview with Ryan Ries of the Whosoevers on Pastors Perspective
For months now I have been wanting to hear what Pastor Brian Brodersen’s thoughts were on what I have seen happening in the Whosoever movement.
As I shared in my last post “Calvary Chapel and the Whosoevers–Is The Church Tolerating The Sin of Balaam and Jezebel,” over the last few months I have been calling and emailing Pastor Brian repeatedly. I was hoping and praying to hear back from him. I honestly thought that maybe he didn’t understand what was going on with things inside the movement. I thought he would at the very least be interested, even concerned. I know I am not the only one that cares about these issues. I see people on Facebook, everyday, asking the same questions and hoping for the same answers.
So when I received a phone call on Friday afternoon that Brian Brodersen was addressing the Whosoever movement on Pastor’s Perspective I was thrilled. If you are not familiar with Calvary Chapels, Pastor’s Perspective is a radio program where you can call in live and ask questions. Well, on Friday November 14 the whole show was dedicated to the issues many people are seeing with the Whosoevers.
Finally, a response! I could finally hear what Pastor Brian thinks of all of this!
Honestly, it was good to hear something come out of his mouth. He is the senior pastor of one of the largest Bible teaching church fellowships in the United States. But what I heard was not only disappointing, it was shocking.
It knocked the wind out of me.
I sat in my car, in a random parking lot that I had pulled into to listen for an hour, and cried. As the concerns of many loving Christians were minimized, marginalized and vilified.
But this isn’t about me. I am not here to defend myself or what I wrote. I do still stand by it. I have prayed to the Lord to help me write this. Because first and foremost I need to have a spirit of humility. I am nobody. I am not here to win an argument. Pastor Brian is smarter than I am, and he has accomplished more in his life than I have. He wins.
However, I want to respond. This is not written to correct Pastor Brian. He has taken his stand. But, I am writing this to those who have emailed me asking me what I think of the show.
Since I am getting emails asking for my response, I am going to respond to a few key points. I am going to paraphrase some of the comments as best as I can. Please feel free to listen to the show to get exact word for word quotations.
First of all, at the beginning of the show they ask Ryan why there is “raw language” on his website. They must be referring to the youtube video of the KORN concert that the Whosoevers posted on their website, where you could hear the F-word over and over and over and over again. This video has since been removed.
Ryan responded by saying that they want to show the good, the bad, and the ugly of Christianity. That our generation wants raw truth. They want you to be straight up, to talk about sex addiction, suicide, cutting, etc. He said that Nikki Minaj’s album cover is pornographic and every kid sees it and is exposed to this stuff.
My question is- What? So, wait? What is your answer to that question? Because who told you that you shouldn’t talk to kids honestly about sex addiction, suicide and cutting? Nobody has ever criticized you for that! The question is, why does your Christian website have the F-word on it? Why do members of the Whosoevers use foul language and unwholesome words? Is that a prerequisite for reaching the youth? Why do you act like the only way to reach out to troubled youth is offensive language? Oh wait, you don’t call it offensive language you call it “raw language.” Why does that make it more real? Phrases like “butt naked wrestling” and “banging girls” do not belong in the pulpit Ryan. Standing in your father’s pulpit on a Sunday morning and saying, “Let me lay hands on you and pray for you” while you reach your hands out as if you are grabbing a girls breasts, laughing, and then saying “don’t do that when you pray for girls” is irreverent to the Lord. Not only that it makes women feel uncomfortable, and disrespected. You say that you care about these troubled youth, so consider how that might make a troubled young victim of sexual abuse feel–very uncomfortable.
How about the “raw language” that Head uses, in the video from Denver that you are using to justify that God is doing amazing things on the tour? You posted a video on your Facebook (below) and you are proud of the ministry that took place there. But what about the “raw language” that came out of Head’s mouth as he “shared Christ“– “Oingo Boingo, Duran Duran BS,” “Meth grabbed me by the b@lls,” “That religion that we saw on TV when we were growing up . . . most of it was BS!” or how about when he began his prayer at the end, “Lord, Look . . . There has been a bunch of BS sold to us Lord . . .”
Irreverent and ungodly.
So people put their thumbs up in the air, to respond to a positive message. How many of them do you honestly think just got saved? How many of them just picked up the cross? How many of those people are convicted of sin and repentant? How many are going to get in their cars and throw out their Korn and Slipknot CDs? How many of them are really going to go and listen to the Shine Bible studies after they were just told by Head, that all that church stuff they saw on TV as kids is “BS.” It was an easy message, and you got a positive response. On top of all of it, it was a message filled with anger at traditional Christianity and filthy language.
“Dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we who teach will be judged more strictly. Indeed, we all make many mistakes. For if we could control our tongues, we would be perfect and could also control ourselves in every other way . . .And so blessing and cursing come pouring out of the same mouth. Surely, my brothers and sisters, this is not right! Does a spring of water bubble out with both fresh water and bitter water? Does a fig tree produce olives, or a grapevine produce figs? No, and you can’t draw fresh water from a salty spring.” (James 3:1-2, 10-12)
I don’t see a verse underneath that qualifies that “raw language” is okay if the times are wild and you need to be relevant to the culture you are trying to reach.
Has Brian Welch Matured?
The second thing that I want to address is the question that was asked, “Has Brian Welch matured?” Ryan replies, “Totally.” It was in reference to the videos online. Probably Whosoevers Exposed. They went on to say that yes he has matured and that the videos online are from 10 years ago, and they are old and irrelevant. Which isn’t exactly true . . . Since the older videos show him a bit more godly than the newer ones . . .
Ryan made a bold statement, “God led him back to Korn. Those are his best friends he grew up with his whole life.” He says that Brian is able to show them love, and share Christ with them. I find this statement presumptuous.
He is saying that God led Head back to Korn, and he is expecting that statement to settle any questions critics might have. Well, is God leading Head other places? Did God lead Head to the Benny Hinn event? Did God lead Head to Bethel Redding? Did God lead Head to the occult Supernatural Bible School (last month)? If God is leading Head, then why would there be so many strange places Head is going?
Brian Brodersen followed with, “When your walk is solid we need to be able to go pretty much any place. Jesus wasn’t afraid to go anywhere.”
This sounds good, but this just isn’t true.
First of all, you can’t just go anywhere. You can’t just go to a strip club, sit down and share Jesus with a girl that is dancing for you, just because your walk is solid. You can’t go watch 50 Shades of Grey with a bunch of lonely dissatisfied women, just so you can witness to them about purity afterwards.
Second of all, this whole statement is predicated on the idea that Brian Welch has a solid walk. Which has not been demonstrated at all, and is exactly what is being brought into question!
Before we even go on to talk about him playing in Korn, or touring with Slipknot. Why don’t we look at his supposedly “Christian” work? This song “Flush” is one of his videos that he did 3 years after leaving Korn to follow Jesus. It is about how addictive and destructive an addiction to meth can be. I would suggest you DON’T watch this video, because it features two women in bras and underwear licking red powder off each others half naked bodies rubbing their chests, engaging in lesbian behavior and it is extremely erotic and distasteful. Again, this is his work as a “Christian.” But don’t watch it, unless, like Brian Brodersen says your walk is solid–because then, we can by all means tempt ourselves into sexual immorality.
Like seriously though, don’t watch this:
Click here if you don’t believe me, and you want to see the video “Flush”
[I removed the embedded video because the image was too gross]
Head says that this song is about “flushing all the crap in life down the toilet and starting out fresh.” I guess lesbian erotica helps you do that?
Pastor Brian went on to share a truly endearing story of Head ministering to his sister in a very sweet and compassionate way. He was blessed.
He said that because of this incident, when people come up to him with information like I presented in my article, he shrugs his shoulders and says, “I don’t have time for this . . . When was the last time you led anyone to Christ?” Then he laughed, and went on, “You been telling any heroin addicts about Jesus lately?”
This sounds like he basically makes negative assumptions and scoffs at the very watchmen that are trying to contend for the faith. Instead of being willing to address the difficulties and edify the church; it is like Brian Welch is above error, just because one time he had a good conversation with Pastor Brian’s sister.
He goes on to say in his soft thoughtful voice, “Often times, the ones criticizing the loudest are the ones who really aren’t doing anything, except sitting around criticizing the ones who are out doing it.”
Wow. Basically, he is saying that as believers we need to “be quiet” about all this. Because if you voice a concern, it means that you are failing at serving God. That is very subtle manipulation. And it isn’t even true! You don’t even know me, or the people making the videos or the other writers. You don’t know that I couldn’t even write this response until today because I was involved in actually serving God this weekend! But that doesn’t matter. Because even if I wasn’t serving God this weekend–this argument is a logical fallacy! Brian Brodersen is smart too, so he even knows what Ad Hominem means.
And, I must say that I get this response a lot. Especially from the Whosoever crowd. And it is a tactic of bullying. Instead of assailing me with assumptions, why don’t you just use a Bible verse and show me where I am wrong? That works much better. And it is Biblical.
But Ryan says, “Head and Sonny are the real deal. True Christians, true love, leading thousands of people to the Lord.” He then goes on to make a /prophetic/ declaration I guess that when we get to heaven we are all going to see who gets all the crowns, it won’t be the criticizers. Anyone who criticizes the movement will stand and watch as Jesus gives all the crowns to Head and Fieldy.
The interview goes on, and this will be the third thing that I feel needs to be addressed. Ken Sutton asks Ryan this question, “Sonny and Head, these guys don’t have perfect theology do they?” *pause* Ryan repeats, “…perfect theology…” soft laughter fills the studio. As everyone chuckles at the idea that anyone has perfect theology.
Sutton explains, “this is the nuances: they have said this . . . they have done that . . . gone to this church . . . they don’t have perfect theology do they?”
So Ryan goes on to explain why this is understandable. “When you are a rock star you meet everyone . . . you meet all the freaks.”
He shared a story of a time when Head sent him a picture, and he asked where he was and found out that Head was at a Benny Hinn event. At this point in the conversation, everyone laughed again (the laughter was weird to me throughout this whole interview). And Ryan said he texted him, “You’re a weirdo, dude.” And they laughed again (is this really funny?) Apparently the reason that Head finds himself at Benny Hinn events, in the Holy Ghost movie, serving communion and toking “baby Jesus” with John Crowder, rolling on the ground “drunk in the Spirit” at Bethel Redding, and recently graduating from Jonathan Welton’s Supernatural Bible School, is because he is just a people watcher. Ryan said, “He’s not backing those dudes.” Head just wants to check out everything.
Now these are lies. This is simply not true. People will hear this on the radio, and believe that it is true. But it is a lie. And I cannot say that in a nicer way. This is not old news; it isn’t that he used to be into all this stuff, but he is not anymore. No. This is what he is into, he is proud of it, and he isn’t going to change. He has said so. Recently.
It sounds like now he knows better, But it is the irony of the non-response because they are not saying that he no longer supports Crowder, just that he is now aware.
And since when does Calvary Chapel laugh at the question of bad theology?
Is that a new thing?
When Pastor Chuck died, did we then get free reign to read The Shack?
And so why did you pull Gungor off the radio list Brian? (insert soft laughter). If it doesn’t matter if they have perfect theology or not?
In fact, I saw someone ask Ryan if he had warned Brian Welch about John Crowder. And Ryan responded yes, that he is aware. They are acting as if Brian has been warned and repented of his ungodly connections. It couldn’t be further from the truth! (If you don’t know who John Crowder is, why he is demonic, and how Brian is connected to him, click here and scroll down).
This person makes a good point. Head has not renounced false teachers, he continues to promote them.
In fact three months ago, Brian Welch asked people to donate money to a ministry that supports John Crowder.
The Fire House Project, that Head asked Christians to give money to recommends a book by John Crowder. They are super mystical, and their doctrine is dangerous.
Brian Welch teaches us to get drunk in the Spirit as he rolls around on the floor, telling us that God loves us like a man loves his wife’s naked body. It is so strange. (March 2014)
He asks people to pray for an experience with God, “Say it with me, ‘Jesus. I don’t know what this is all about. But I know Head wouldn’t lie to me. Show me that these angels are real. Show me that your spirit is real. Show me that you are really God. I want to know the truth. Show me the way. Amen.'”
Wow. But I know Head wouldn’t lie to me? Show me these angels are real? Is that the gospel?
Ryan posted this on his Facebook with the caption “Are the Whosoevers devil worshipers? The Whosoevers exposed.” You can see how seriously he takes these allegations.
The next thing that I want to talk about is the discussion on worldliness. They began to address the critics who say that the movement is too worldly.
Ryan addressed this by saying you need to be in the world, and not of it. Okay. He went on to say, “you gotta be in the world if you are going to reach people.”
I agree. But I disagree that it means it is okay to be worldly to reach people. He uses the example of Jesus taking the disciples to Caesarea Philippi, this is a place where they used to worship Pan, and it was worldly, and demonic and people were even sacrificed there. Except. Jesus didn’t take them to a pagan festival. He took them there because he was about to take three of them up Mt. Hermon and be transfigured before their eyes. You can’t just take this portion of Scripture and act like this was Jesus taking them to a Korn show, being a light in darkness.
Brian Brodersen goes on to say, “Do not judge according to appearance. Judge what is right according to truth. I have the advantage of knowing you Ryan. I know you, I know your heart, I know your story, I know your love for Christ, so I completely trust you. When I hear you are on tour with Slipknot (everyone laughs) what was that tour called? (Ryan says, ‘Prepare for Hell’ and everyone laughs again) Yeah, when I see that I’m not worried thinking gosh I hope Ryan doesn’t jump in there . . . because I know you. People who don’t really know, they are looking from appearance and making a judgement call. I think if people knew Head. If you knew Sonny. If you knew they were in the trenches . . . I think one of the mistakes is to think as Christians we are to isolate ourselves . . .”
Pastor Brian please stop worrying about what the critics think, and please start worrying about what the new believers think!
Because, there are many people that are making a judgment about this. The least of all is me. I am honestly not at all stumbled into sin by this. I came out of this lifestyle and I hate it and I am not at all looking at this and thinking, “Hmmm. Maybe it is okay for me to listen to Slipknot again?”
But there are those who are thinking that. They are looking at this ministry, and seeing head post pictures from backstage at the Slipknot shows and judging that they can have that life and walk with Christ.
Don’t worry about what I think about this.
Worry about what THOSE people think.
A woman posted on the Pastors Perspective Facebook page this weekend:
Pastors’ Perspective – Brian Welch joins this video around the 9 or 10 minute mark. This is NOT a 10yr old video – this is from 1 yr ago. Warning – the whole video is completely foul and evil. Who is getting the glory here? Certainly not Jesus. While you pastors had Ryan Ries sitting in front of you in the studio, you should have given him godly/pastorly advice to walk away from this darkness. Instead, you promoted it. Shame. Ryan says he had a porn problem. Have you seen the mic stand that Korn uses? It’s a naked woman’s body. As pastors, shouldn’t you be advising Ryan to walk away from that, too? Your program was not honest and was just a promo for The Whosoevers. Where are the testimonies of young people walking away from this darkness? Not going to happen because they are actually being invited to join it! I am very disappointed in the leadership of the church that we have been a part of for 30 years. Stop pretending that this ministry is actually doing anything. It is only indulging sinfulness. Korn and Slipknot lyrics and images are evil and there is no way Ryan Ries should be on tour with them. I cannot even believe that Brian Brodersen said that God called Brian Welch back into Korn. Have you lost your mind?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Az9vNcW7Cc
Pastor Brian and Pastors Perspective, both, did not respond to her.
The link she posted shows Head performing with Rob Zombie (who I used to love). It is so hard to watch this and wonder how a believer could 1.) think this is okay and 2.) not get their heart sucked back into the the worldly love of it.
Pastor Brian says worldliness is about our hearts, but how can you say Head’s heart is not into Korn’s music? That isn’t true. He loves it. He admits it. In the video posted above, you see Head performing “Am I Evil” with these bands.
So you can’t tell me that people are not going to be stumbled back into worldliness thinking that they can have both–satanic music and worship, Slipknot, J-Devil and Christ, darkness and light–when the Whosoevers certainly are having both.
THAT should matter to you Pastor Brian.
THAT is righteous judgment.
“Abstain from all appearance of evil.” (1 Thessalonians 5:22)
Why? So you don’t stumble others!
When I was in a dating relationship, I was taught by Calvary Chapels that I shouldn’t be seen snuggling in a car with my love interest, because of the appearance of evil. We shouldn’t be alone at my house late at night, because of the appearance of evil. We shouldn’t go on vacation together before we are married, because of the appearance of evil.
Chuck Smith never said that it is okay to go on vacation getaways with my love interest if he knows us. Other people might think we are fornicating . . . but that is just because they do not know us. But Pastor Chuck knows our hearts . . . And when was the last time they shared with a heroin addict? But really, it is fine! He knows our hearts, and our love for Jesus, etc. People are just being judgmental and legalistic. NOPE.
Pastor Brian knows their hearts.
“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9)
Where are the Whosoevers being careful to ABSTAIN from ALL APPEARANCE of EVIL?
This is not even mentioned.
It is just dismissed with, “well, you don’t know them well enough.”
At one point they even said that Slipknot is probably just putting on an evil facade. It is just a show. So they are giving the idea that these guys are really not that bad, it is just a show. They just like to put on the appearance of evil, for fun. They are sheep in wolves clothing, really. Well, maybe goats clothing would be more appropriate.
Cool. Anyone have the gift of discerning of spirits? If so, see how far you can get in this song without feeling something literally demonic. Go ahead and pray over your home afterwards too, to close the door you just opened.
Then it gets really ridiculous.
It Is Just a Job
After Pastor Brian discusses Christians isolating themselves, he talks about this idea that if you are a Christian musician people think you need to be in a Christian band or on a Christian label and that people think you are bad if you aren’t. He says, “That’s a wrong thing. We would never apply that anywhere else. If I’m a carpenter I don’t have to work with a Christian contractor.” He says it is the same with a mechanic, and so on. He says, “If I’m a musician, this is my job. I want to be a witness. I look at Sonny and Head, and that’s what they’re doing.”
Well, there is a huge difference between working as a carpenter (which is a job that Jesus did) and playing in a satanic band. Right? There is a difference between being a mechanic and a stripper. Right? There are certain jobs you need to resign from when you choose to pick up a cross. If your job causes you to sin against God you need to quit.
Playing music in Korn is a sin. The songs are blasphemous, pornographic, and R-rated. We are not talking about playing back up for Stevie Wonder.
Christians can’t even listen to Korn without sinning. Period. And now that line has been blurred.
Brian Welch performed this song about a year ago. It probably has over 300 F-words. It looks like Brian is having a good time too. Brian needs to repent.
So now you have people singing worship songs at Shine, and singing Korn songs in the car on the way home from church. Interesting.
Brian said that with the “Coorperate America Anti-Christ Agenda” who can you work for? Basically implying that working for Target and Starbucks is equally Anti-Christ. So here we have again another logical fallacy Pastor Brian–False Comparison. A carpenter is not the same type of job as a guitarist in Korn.
And to imply that the critics think it is wrong to work a secular job, and we just hide in our houses, isolating ourselves, with our “Christian yellow pages” is again, another insult, based on assumption, intended to silence the critics.
John the Baptist
I am almost done with this response. What I say isn’t going to change anything anyways. But I do want to point out something. Ryan mentioned that people at Knotfest came up to his booth saying, “there were Christians outside telling us we were going to go to hell and we need to repent.” He said that it was turn or burn, and unloving. He said that the Slipknot fans said that they liked the Whosoevers better, because they are all love.
“Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
For so did their fathers to the false prophets.” (Luke 6:26)
He said, “99% of all Christians won’t walk in there because they are terrified of the place because it is dark.” and he finished with comparing the Whosoever presence there to the ministry of John the Baptist.
If you were preaching like John the Baptist Ryan, the Slipknot fans would not have loved you or welcomed you at all. Be honest.
John the Baptist preached, “Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near.”
“You brood of snakes!” he exclaimed. “Who warned you to flee God’s coming wrath? Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God. Don’t just say to each other, ‘We’re safe, for we are descendants of Abraham [or maybe some other man of God].’ That means nothing, for I tell you, God can create children of Abraham from these very stones. Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.
“I baptize with water those who repent of their sins and turn to God. But someone is coming soon who is greater than I am—so much greater that I’m not worthy even to be his slave and carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. He is ready to separate the chaff from the wheat with his winnowing fork. Then he will clean up the threshing area, gathering the wheat into his barn but burning the chaff with never-ending fire.” (Matthew 3)
John the Baptist did not set up a tent at a pagan festival to sell t-shirts and hand out CD’s of his testimony. He preached a hard message.
He literally preached turn or burn.
Didn’t you say that was a bad thing to do?
What is funny is that you laugh at Benny Hinn (a fake teacher who lies and steals from God’s people). You excuse all of Head’s ministry connections that have “imperfect theology.” All those false teachers get a free pass and a soft laugh. The ONLY ministry you come against are the ones who preached the gospel to the people going to Knotfest. Why? They had the word of God coming out of their mouth and they were speaking truth. People actually stood there and repented. Are they not on the same team you are playing for?
I am reminded of what Jesus said in John 15
“If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first. The world would love you as one of its own if you belonged to it, but you are no longer part of the world. I chose you to come out of the world, so it hates you. Do you remember what I told you? ‘A slave is not greater than the master.’ Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you. They will do all this to you because of me, for they have rejected the one who sent me.”
Now I am not saying we need to be mean to people, at all. We shouldn’t. But those people outside were not being mean. They were preaching. Preaching like John the Baptist. Outside the gates. Maybe most of the Slipknot fans did not appreciate their message because they love darkness rather than light. And maybe, they don’t mind your message so much because it doesn’t convict them of sin.
“And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.” (John 3:19-21)
So in conclusion, I finally have my response from Pastor Brian. He said it at the beginning of the program:
“We are really happy that you are here. Really blessed that you are doing Thursday nights with Shine. We just want to continue to pray for you. And man, when I hear about you preaching at Slipknot concerts I just think that is absolutely amazing.”
It isn’t what I wanted to hear, but at least now I know where Calvary Chapels are choosing to stand, what they are willing to overlook and ignore, and who they are choosing to insult.
It is a little shocking. It is very sad.
I am grieving, literally crying over what is happening. Ryan assumes that people like me are critical because we don’t get it. The opposite is true. I get it. I am critical because I was in it. I came out of it. I see the demons behind it. And I don’t see people getting rescued, but false converts putting their thumbs up to a positive message, thinking they are saved, and walking away unregenerated.
I am so broken.
But I am still praying.
I still love the people of Calvary Chapel. Of course. I am fervent in prayer for them to see the truth. They will hear the good stuff from the Whosoevers movement. They will hear rational explanations, soft laughter, and Biblical sounding encouragement from Ryan. In fact the show ended with him giving a pot addict a very good message of repentance. They will see Pastor Brian Brodersen support them no matter what, and “not have time” for any serious information.
Good people will be confused because after all, how can it be bad when Ryan says some really good things. They forget that the enemy uses a LOT of truth to conceal a tiny error. Like Jacob Prasch says, “Every mouse trap, has real cheese.”
But please don’t forget that even a little leaven will spread, and leaven the whole lump.
Please don’t tolerate leaven in your life.
Please don’t compromise with leaven in your church.
In the end, you are really going to have to look at the facts for yourself, and line them up according to the Word of God. Please don’t blindly follow what I am saying. And don’t just follow what Pastor Brian says, just because he is smart and successful. It doesn’t matter. We are all accountable for what we know. We all have to look to the Word of God, and not the smooth words of man, in order to discern truth from error.
I am praying for everyone who sees this. God bless you.
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. (Titus 2:11-15)
You can’t argue with that verse, even if you softly laugh in a radio studio.