The “Son of God” Movie Is NOT What We Think–Do You Know The Voice of Your Master

Last year the History Channel featured the epic television event, “The Bible Series,” which was produced by Roma Downey and her husband Mark Burnett. This show captivated audiences and became the talk of many churches. Churches even purchased pre-written sermons to go along with the show, which according to outreach.com made it into 180,000 churches.

Roma and Mark were endlessly interviewed in Christian magazines, and on Christian radio. All along saying that they were sold out Christians and believers filled with the Holy Spirit.

And the churches bought it.

They promoted it.

And yet, as I watched “The Bible Series,” I personally became furious at how much they twisted the word of God. Not just omitting things for the sake of time–but changing the theme, the message, and the nature of Bible characters, and the nature of God Himself.

That is inexcusable.

God will judge that.

I was furious.

My husband and I were sitting in our darkened living room with our bowls of ice cream and we couldn’t even get five minutes into it without pausing it and discussing how, not only is it different than the Bible, but that the way that it is different changes so much of the truth of God and the Bible. We would talk about what message it is sending to people that don’t know God. It got so bad that I had to write about it.

***DisclaimerNow, in this blog I am going to go on and tell you some things about Roma Downey and Mark Burnett that some of you might find judgmental. I am being judgmental. Jesus told us to know them by their fruit, He warned us that false teachers come in like wolves among sheep. There are two types of judging–judging to identify the nature and identity of someone or something (which Jesus told us to do). And judging to punish or condemn to hell (which we are to leave to God). I am judging to identify, and warn. I am not judging to condemn to hell.

You might not be used to this kind of writing. You might think it is unbiblical. If you haven’t read the Epistles in the New Testament you might not know that most of them are warnings to the churches to be careful of false teachers, and exhortation to stand against false teaching. Paul did this. Timothy did this. Peter did this. John did this. Titus did this. And so did Jude. This is what the church is supposed to do. I am not hateful. I have passion for the truth of the Lord Jesus. I am going to post a verse that sums it up before I let you get back to the article.

“But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.” (2 Corinthians 11:12-15)***

Last year, I wrote about some alarming information about Roma Downey’s New Age ties and unbiblical twisting of the Bible in “Wake Up! — me screaming then apologizing for some strange reason” and later in “The Bible Series on the History Channel–Turning The Word of God into Hebrew Myth

All along the thing that got me the most upset was how easily the church allowed Roma Downey and Mark Burnett to come in and deceive us. We gave up our pulpits to strangers, thinking they were like us but all along they were fake Christians.

Did you know that?

They are NOT real Christians.

They are full on New Agers.

This is portion of what I wrote on this topic last year:

I was listening to Christian radio last week and I heard a radio interview on Focus on the Family with Roma Downey and Mark Burnett about their new television series, The Bible. They claimed to be Christian and said that the Lord has called them to make this series. She shared about how she would pray and ask the Holy Spirit to fill her when she was on “Touched by an Angel.” I was a little surprised at the picture she was trying to create, but I let it go. Whatever. But one of their main points was that there are a lot of Christians in Hollywood and they are not ashamed to admit it.

… Then I happened to see a blog by a woman I used to follow years ago. And she mentioned that Roma Downey has some New Age ties. I remembered my red flag and I followed up on her sources and did my own research. Because by now many members of my church were posting on Facebook about how “AMAZING” the show was. I don’t want to be a kill-joy! But it is true. Roma Downey deceived the church when she went on Focus on the Family. She came on Christian Radio and pretended to be a the same kind of Christian that we are. There is room for differences in the body of Christ, but New Age paganism falls outside the fence.

She was quoted in an article talking about how she listens to books on tape by Eckart Tolle. “I get my own selections [on the radio in the car] — books on tape by Eckhart Tolle, Tony Robbins…” She goes on to say, “My husband says I’m so self-realized I’m practically levitating.’” Really? Because I have never heard my pastor’s wife talk like that? If you are not familiar with Eckart Tolle, he is a New Age teacher who twists the Bible and adds it to his Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Shintoist philosophy. If you are familiar with him, and you like him–whatever. He is a false teacher when it comes to Christianity. Charlie Campbell has a list of his troubling statements.

Aside from her VERY questionable theological beliefs, she has gone to the University of Santa Monica to get a degree in “Spiritual Psychology.” When I first read that I thought, “so?” BUT when I looked it up, the University of Santa Monica is not just a school like Cal Poly or USC that people from all walks of life go to. When you click on their home page you will see that it specializes in New Age degrees.

When you go to the page entitled “What is Spiritual Psychology?” you will see that they are indeed promoting New Age ideas. Here is a quote, “Spiritual Psychology is the study and practice of the art and science of human evolution in consciousness.” It goes on to say, “Put another way, Spiritual Psychology is a technology that empowers students to convert their everyday life experiences into rungs on the ladder of Spiritual Evolution.” 

Spiritual Evolution.

Do you think that has ANYTHING to do with Jesus dying on the cross for your sins? So you could evolve spiritually? NOOOOO. It is blasphemy to the Christian which she claims to be. A Christian who happens to be so self-realized that she is levitating?!?!  Uhm levitating? That is a funny little joke Roma. Because IF you were self-realized, have you realized that you are created out of dirt? You are a sinner? You can’t evolve spiritually, because if  you could Jesus wouldn’t have had to come die on the cross for your sins. Do you “realize” that the Bible is the BEST book on “Spiritual Psychology” there is??? And it won’t baby you, or flatter you–but it will give you the truth and give you HOPE that ONLY exists IN CHRIST JESUS!

So this New Age woman and her husband want to go on Focus on the Family and laugh and talk about the Holy Spirit and their love for the Bible, and this call that God placed on their lives to make a Hollywood movie of His favorite book.

Then they wanted all their Hollywood friends to promote the series on Twitter. For some reason John Edward from “Crossing Over” tweeted that he didn’t need to be a psychic to know that this series is going to be SPECTACULAR! And P-Diddy, Christian Aguilera, Jane Lynch, Sarah Ferguson Duchess of York, Adam Levine, and Shakira just so happen to really love the Bible, right? Do they go to church too? Are they some of the Christians in Hollywood that you talked about in your interview? That is crazy.

And then when my friends are telling me, after watching it, that it was “SOOOOOOO GOOOOOOOD.” And they did notice a few things that were different, but other than that it was really, really good. So to them it is okay that it is different from the Bible. A series called the Bible and it is DIFFERENT than the Bible. Okay . . . (The Last Hiker)

Downey on the cover of OM Times Magazine

I just read that Roma Downey was even on TV with famous psychic Jonathan Edward talking to her dead mother. This is a practice called necromancy, which is forbidden in the Bible, at least for real Christians. God hates this.

ACTRESS Roma Downey has talked to her mother through a psychic on live TV. The Derry-born Touched By An Angel star was a guest on a celebrity version of the US psychic show Crossing Over, hosted by medium John Edward. Roma’s mother Maureen died of a heart attack in Derry when she was 10. And Roma was heartbroken that she was never able to tell her how much she loved her. So she jumped at an offer from the producers of the show on the Sci-Fi Channel to speak to her mum using Edwards for the connection. (source).

And her connections to psychic Jonathan Edward do not end there, she even went on to partner with him in a book he wrote. Does this sound like someone you would invite to teach in your church?

History Channel The Bible | New Age heresy and unbiblical errors.

Psychic Jonathan Edward’s book with a Meditation CD of Roma Downey’s

Not only has Downey used and endorsed John Edward’s occult practices, she has assisted him with a book on praying based on heretical Catholic practices. In the book Edwards encourages readers to “pray the rosary” a practice of holding a Catholic Crucifix necklace and uttering repetitive chants in prayers to Mary, the mother of Jesus in the Bible. This practice is sinful for several reasons. As shown above, Christians are not to communicate with the dead. Whether it is a relative, someone from the Bible or a celebrity, any attempts to speak with the dead is necromancy. Secondly, Mary was just a normal person. We are not to pray to her, hail her or seek anything from God through Mary. 1 Timothy 2:3 says: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” It is Jesus Christ who is our advocate with God The Father. He is our High Priest who we take our prayers too.(Beginning and End)

These people are liars. They have a history of twisting the Word of God in ways that change the message of the gospel and the nature, character, holiness, righteousness, and justice of God. I go into more detail in the “Hebrew Myth” post. Please take time to read it. What they do with the Bible is terrible. And this is very important.

Because this film is being handed to us as a “tool of evangelism” and a way to give Jesus to people who do not go to church–isn’t it important that we make sure we are giving them the real Jesus and not Hollywood Jesus? Because again, they are asking us to do their publicity for them. On their official site you can get free posters and community outreach kits. Pastors can again buy sermons and discussion guides. The level of marketing for this movie is crazy. Not only do they want to market and promote this movie THROUGH the body of Christ, they also want to SELL the doctrine of this movie to the church. As if the Word of God was for sell. As if the message of the life of Christ was something they have some special insight into.

What if millions of people walk away from this film with a false understanding of Jesus Christ? And what if the Church doesn’t notice this as much because we are already so familiar with Jesus, that we may subconsciously fill in the gaps of the story, but the unchurched cannot do that. They don’t have the prior reference to be able to do that.

I think this “Son of God” film is outright dangerous. It should be treated the same way we treat Mormon and Jehovah’s Witness material. Yes they talk about Jesus. Think about it–they share our same Bible stories. But they have twisted the gospel, the nature of God and the nature of Christ. It is the same thing.

We have seen enough from “The Bible Series” already to convince us that they are going to give the New Age Gospel.

Sunny Shell was quoted on Stand For the Truth, and she said some really important things about how they portrayed two important moments in the life of Christ,

 On John the Baptist: Prior to being beheaded John exclaims “He [Jesus] will bring a new age of righteousness and justice. His [Jesus’] power will draw all men to a new world.”This entire statement is very new-age and doctrinally unsound. Jesus is not interested in social reform. He’s interested in reconciling utterly sinful human beings to a holy, righteous and good God through: His substitutionary death for sinful man, His resurrection of new life for those who’ve repented and trusted in Him, and a glorious eternal life spent in the presence of the Almighty once we’ve completed our sojourn here on earth. Jesus did not come to earth, die, be resurrected and ascended to the right hand of the Father so we could have a “better life” here on earth.

On The Last Supper: While the actor who portrays Jesus says the bread is the body of Christ and the wine is Jesus’ blood, he never says the most important thing: it is for the forgiveness of sins (Matt 26:28). Though all of Scripture points to the Gospel, in this mini-series, there is no Gospel message; only a message of man’s power to have enough “faith” to see himself through and lead others to a “better place”.(emphasis mine. Stand Up For Truth)

Well, apparently this film will closely follow the events in “The Bible Series.” They filmed both projects at the same time. Which means that the Jesus story will be similar, where we can expect to find a watered down social gospel, and a great commission to change the world. In “Wake Up” I had written about how “The Bible Series” portrayed Jesus:

It isn’t just watered down. It isn’t just that they didn’t have time for Jesus to speak the real truth of the gospel. It is absolutely that they want to CHANGE the WORLD’s idea of what Jesus came for.

And another thing, why is the Jesus they picked so “hot?”

The Bible says plainly that the Messiah would be plain, not good looking. “He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.” Isaiah 53:2. Look at these people in the picture. He is made into a Hebrew Bieber.  A celebrity. Our Lord did not come to find superficial worship and tempt women into lust. He was normal looking. You couldn’t look at His group and know which one was Jesus. His beauty came from who He was. But that is not good enough for Hollywood. Because they DO worship celebrity and beauty, so THEIR Jesus has to be super cute.

The Jesus of Hollywood’s Bible is not my Jesus.

And I am not really upset about that. I expect that. Let the world make their own gods, their own idols, and their own images to worship–the world always has.

What gets under my skin is the church. What bothers me is the fact that Focus on the Family promoted this series and gave spotlight to two false teachers in an interview. What bothers me is that if I could verify in 15 minutes that these people are New Agers–they could have and SHOULD have. What also bothers me is that many of my friends don’t get it. They don’t see that there are reasons we don’t have non-Christians teach Bible studies in church, and there are also reasons we shouldn’t drool all over ourselves when we see Hollywood interested in the best book ever written. I have friends that have already paid over sixty dollars to pre-order the DVD’s before they even SEE the whole thing—”So we can teach our children.”

If people want to watch it, let them go for it.

But the church should NOT promote something that is not Biblically sound.

It is a different Jesus.

Now I am pretty much alone in my convictions. I mean there are people that are saying that these people are New Agers, and that “The Bible Series” was horrible, but for the most part–those with the most influence are promoting the Bible Series as well as this new movie. 95% of the church that I currently attend will probably go and enjoy it. They don’t know better. To them, it is better than American Hustle and other garbage at the theaters.

And it seems like so many other Christians are saying it is good . . .

Money Money Money

Rick Warren is renting out movie theaters for it. Which is no surprise. I mean he is really a closeted New Ager and New World Order promoter himself.

Many religious leaders are citing the movie as a natural opportunity to evangelize. Warren may have a vested interest in the film, since he wrote a curriculum tied to the movie and published by LifeWay Christian Resources.

The couple behind the show, producer Burnett and former “Touched by an Angel” star Downey, have enlisted interdenominational support from religious leaders such as Texas megachurch pastor T.D. Jakes and Roman Catholic Archbishop Jose Gomez of Los Angeles.

Burnett, who has produced shows like “Survivor,” “The Voice” and “Shark Tank,” said he’s never seen a buyout before.

“There aren’t many things that could garner this kind of support,” Burnett said. “People are going to watch the movie collectively, in community.”

After Mel Gibson’s “The Passion of the Christ” made $612 million, observers expected to see more films about Jesus. Several upcoming Bible-related films are now in the pipeline.

While evangelicals are often credited with shoring up support for movies like “The Passion of the Christ” and “Fireproof,” Washington Cardinal Donald Wuerl has commissioned discussion guides and videos for Catholic churches and schools, and Archbishop Thomas Wenski of Miami is planning to rent a theater for thousands of Catholics in Miami. (Religion News)

This is huge. It is Ecumenical. Interdenominational. It is drawing the Osteens, the Catholic Archbishops, the Warren camp. T.D. Jakes, etc. So many BIG NAME religious leaders (and false teachers) are putting money into it, and probably making a lot money out of it.

Liberty University invited Downey and Burnett to speak and give a special screening of the movie. Compassion International is helping to pack movie theaters too.

They were at the Passion Conference in Houston earlier this month promoting the movie as well. It seems that even some popular pastors in the Calvary Chapel movement are promoting it as well. Dave Rolph, who is on KWVE radio, posted on his facebook this week:

I saw the movie “Son of God” yesterday. (It will hit the theaters February 28th.) I’m praying that God will use it to get people talking about Jesus. If you like Bible movies, and especially if you liked the mini-series Mark Burnett did, you’ll enjoy this movie. When it comes to Bible movies I always think the book is better than the movies, but some people might see the movie who haven’t yet read the book. I’m sure there will be people who criticize the movie for not being exactly like the Bible. Like “Passion of the Christ” it borrows from church tradition instead of just Scripture, when it comes to the stations of the cross stuff. But it identifies Jesus as God in the first minute, and has a clear resurrection, so it is already the best movie about Jesus to hit the theaters. I appreciate the considerable effort Mark Burnett and Roma Downey put into this movie, and I pray God uses it.

It is everywhere.

CeeLo giving the middle finger

Even CeeLo Green, most famous for his song “F*ck You” will be singing “Mary Did You Know” at the end of the movie. How touching.

And Christians will go.

They will be entertained.

They will eat popcorn and invite their unsaved uncle.

Then pat themselves on the back for evangelizing their family members by giving them the DVD of the “Son of God” movie for Christmas next year.

A movie that like “The Bible Series,” will probably ignore our sin and our need for the substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross.  A movie that will turn the gospel’s call for radical faith, repentance and reliance upon the Lord into a shallow feel good message.

People will walk away liking “Jesus,” or rather liking Diogo Morgado, and they will think because they like the Hollywood Jesus they are Christian more or less. They will not sense their urgent need to come to a saving knowledge of the true Christ. And they will be deceived into thinking they are alright, when they are in serious spiritual jeopardy.

That is dangerous.

There are those who think that all this can be redeemed though, and the movie will serve as a tool of evangelism, a “conversation starter” and an emotionally moving form of entertainment.

I think Sunny Shell did a great job answering these thoughts in the article I quoted from above. Take a look:

Throughout the entire series, God’s holiness and righteousness is either completely omitted or diminished. The Almighty is portrayed as the Roman Catholic’s angry God who curses people if they don’t obey, mixed with the heretical false god of Joel Osteen who wants to give you a big hug and make you happy no matter what you’ve done. Putting both sects of heretical teachings together produces an angry and sappy deity who desperately wants people to know about His love (as defined by the world) and will punish all the “bad” people, while allowing all the “good” people.

Q. “Even though there’s a lot of error in this movie, still, don’t you think it’s a great way to show people who God really is, I mean, can’t God use anything to save someone?

A. No, I don’t think this movie is a great way to reveal the truth about God since it’s filled with lies about God. And yes, I realize God can use anything to save someone, but He only chose to use the message of the true Gospel to save all men (John 14:6Acts 4:12). Nowhere in Scripture does God command or allow His children to use the work of Satan to proclaim His truth. And God is clear, anyone who denies Him and defiles His holy character or word, works for the devil, not for God. Since the beginning of time, the devil has attempted to minimize and blaspheme God’s holy character by lulling us to disregard His holiness, justice and righteousness. God has never called His children of light to partner with the works of darkness (2 Cor 6:15-16). As God’s children, we are commanded to pursue holiness, rather than try to find a way to compromise the glory of Christ in order to ‘reach more people’.

 (Stand Up For the Truth)

In “Wake UP” I shared about how evangelist Ray Comfort did not endorse “The Bible Series” which is super important for the following reasons:

How can someone receive the Lord without a clear presentation of the Gospel? You are not automatically born again if you think “hot” Jesus’ message to “change the world” resonates with something inside of you.

Ray Comfort summed it up on his Facebook yesterday:

“It’s been brought to my attention, by a reliable source who conducted thorough research, that there are a number of unbiblical and very questionable things in “The Bible” television series–about the deity of Christ, the character of God, and the reality of sin (among other things). In light of this recent revelation, I cannot endorse this series. If you choose to watch it, I would urge you to do so with a discerning heart, testing all things.”

Note that is from a man whose only pursuit in life is to see people find Jesus Christ. Don’t you think if it had any evangelical merit, Ray Comfort would know it? I mean this guy still goes to the beach on the weekends (at least twice a month) and stands on a box and publicly proclaims the words of salvation. He cares about reaching the lost. But he also cares about the truth.

FAITH COMES by HEARING

And HEARING by the WORD OF GOD.

If people want to know about God, Jesus and the Bible. There are plenty of other amazing materials they can get their hands on–the best of which would be an actual Bible.

In Conclusion, I am not telling you to not go and see the movie. You can see it if you want. If I do go and see it, I know it will just be to see how much they twist the Bible. And yet I do not want a dime of my money to go to line the pockets of false teachers. But I definitely won’t let my kids watch it, and I won’t recommend it to anyone else.

I personally do not believe that Hollywood, or FAKE Christians can make a good truthful movie about Jesus. I think that the enemy is skilled at doing his best work, using a lot of truth, with just a tiny lie inside of it. Sometimes we don’t even notice the lie because we already agree with so much of the truth.

Roma Downey, Mark Burnet and Diogo Morgado promoting the Son of God movie on Oprah

Roma Downey and Mark Burnett are not Bible loving, gospel preaching Christians. They are New Age Pagans that call themselves Christians. Their gospel is the promise of a New World Order. They are the wolves in sheep’s clothing that come into the church. We need to expose them, not interview them on Focus on the Family.

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.  And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.  By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber. (2 Peter 2:1-3)

Let us use this to prompt us to dig into the New Testament on our own. Let us soak in it, and chew on it, and live off of it. Let us memorize the red words in our Bibles. Let us mutter them in our mouths over and over until we can quote them, and be changed by them. They say that the best way to identify the counterfeit is to study the real thing. We don’t know how much time is left, so let us (let me) not think, ‘Hey the master isn’t coming for a while, let’s just sit back and relax’ like the evil servant. Let us keep watch. And be ready. And know the voice of our master.

Know the voice of our master.

***For a detailed review of “The Son of God” movie and HOW it twists Scripture to change the nature of Christ and the truth of the Gospel, please read this article by Sunny Shell. As a teaser I will quote her last sentence, “This film does a great disservice to anyone who is infected by it’s anemic and sclerotic message of false hope in a false christ.” Now go find out why!!!***

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1,251 Responses to The “Son of God” Movie Is NOT What We Think–Do You Know The Voice of Your Master

  1. Del says:

    Flopsy- In scripture it says: Romans 10:9-10
    New International Version (NIV) 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
    It is as simple as that. It doesn’t say if you are a catholic, or Protestant, or such and such you will be saved or you won’t be saved. BUT, there is a clear instruction in the bible that prohibits us from worshiping IDOLS..and the bible’s definition what an IDOL is, anything that is made out of hands and is formed into the likeness of something. It is important to defend the teaching of the Bible, not traditions, not principles of ideology. 2 Timothy 3:16 says, (New Living Translation) All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.

    Therefore, it is proper to defend our tradition, values, conviction and such for as long as it is instructed in the scripture, because the Word of God (Bible) is our spiritual food. We start feeding our spiritual life apart from what’s in the scripture, we are either fools or deceived.

    Below is a scripture of an instruction about iDOL or carved image. Pay close attention to verse 12-20, where God is obviously very sarcastic about this whole idolatry.
    Isaiah 44:9-20
    New International Version (NIV)
    9 All who make idols are nothing,
    and the things they treasure are worthless.
    Those who would speak up for them are blind;
    they are ignorant, to their own shame.
    10 Who shapes a god and casts an idol,
    which can profit nothing?
    11 People who do that will be put to shame;
    such craftsmen are only human beings.
    Let them all come together and take their stand;
    they will be brought down to terror and shame.
    12 The blacksmith takes a tool
    and works with it in the coals;
    he shapes an idol with hammers,
    he forges it with the might of his arm.
    He gets hungry and loses his strength;
    he drinks no water and grows faint.
    13 The carpenter measures with a line
    and makes an outline with a marker;
    he roughs it out with chisels
    and marks it with compasses.
    He shapes it in human form,
    human form in all its glory,
    that it may dwell in a shrine.
    14 He cut down cedars,
    or perhaps took a cypress or oak.
    He let it grow among the trees of the forest,
    or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow.
    15 It is used as fuel for burning;
    some of it he takes and warms himself,
    he kindles a fire and bakes bread.
    But he also fashions a god and worships it;
    he makes an idol and bows down to it.
    16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire;
    over it he prepares his meal,
    he roasts his meat and eats his fill.
    He also warms himself and says,
    “Ah! I am warm; I see the fire.”
    17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol;
    he bows down to it and worships.
    He prays to it and says,
    “Save me! You are my god!”
    18 They know nothing, they understand nothing;
    their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see,
    and their minds closed so they cannot understand.
    19 No one stops to think,
    no one has the knowledge or understanding to say,
    “Half of it I used for fuel;
    I even baked bread over its coals,
    I roasted meat and I ate.
    Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left?
    Shall I bow down to a block of wood?”
    20 Such a person feeds on ashes; a deluded heart misleads him;
    he cannot save himself, or say, “Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?”

    As far as what you said the Bible says about “Hail Mary full of grace”. In the scripture the angel did not say “Hail Mary” because angels were instructed not to hail on anyone but God, and Mary isn’t God. But the angel simply say, in verse 30 “you have found favor with God”. And on verse 37, with God everything is impossible….simply describing God’s ability, That God is capable of using whomever He chooses to use or chooses to do to bring glory to His name, that goes with Mary being favored by God and Elizabeth conceiving at an old age, or you and me or anyone else can be used for whatever purpose God wants us to use for His glory.

    Below is what actually the scripture says.
    Luke 1:26-37
    The Birth of Jesus Foretold

    26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

    29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

    34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

    35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you,and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[a] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”

    38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

    As for Elizabeth being referred to as “saint”. Just wanna share a thought about this.

    The word “SAINT” comes from the Greek wordhagios, which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious.

    Paul then in several of his writing, says that all who believed in Jesus Christ are “saints”,
    1 Corinthians 1: 2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

    Ephesians 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for rbuilding up sthe body of Christ,

    Above, are just a few verses relating to the people of God as saints. “Saints” are people and are not worthy of worship. Mary is a saint, just as you and me are a saint if we are set apart for God. If you believe that Mary can intercede for you, then we can all (saints here on earth) intercede for one another, praying with one another, sharing each other’s burden. Having to go to a carven image to intercede for us is not biblical, and if not biblical then there is no truth to it, therefore it’s a lie. Because the Word of God is our compass! If there is any instruction for us, Jesus simply say come to me, but nothing in the bible that says go to Mary. But Jesus says,

    Matthew 11:28-30
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

    John 14:6 Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life.No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

    John 14: 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

    Again, there is no inclusion of Mary in the above verses. Jesus keeps repeating, that it’s only in His name and no other name.

    I had few Catholics in my bible study group. They are great women and love The Lord so much but they were very surprised when they began to read the bible that there is so much they did not know about the scripture. I do not know so much about the Catholic but according to these ladies, they really never open or owned a bible before joining our bible study because the bible was only used by the priest. In our bible study, we go through lots of scriptures which they claim have open their eyes and grow their relationship with The Lord. I did not contradict their belief, nor corrected them that their belief was wrong but they claim the scripture convicted them.

    • scandela2 says:

      I agree completely. Mary was not a saint. Praying to Mary is like praying to the wind. As a young girl I was forced by my father to attend the Catholic church, and their school. But my Grandmother had a Bible – I read it front to back and found so many things that we weren’t taught in the Catholic church. The most horrific contradiction was that we couldn’t talk to God! Yes we can – the Bible says so. That’s when I left that church and went to a church that taught directly from the Bible. All Catholics should do the same. You don’t have to rely on your priest to absolve you for your sins. Nobody goes to the Father except by way of the Son, Jesus. Whatever you ask for you ask in Jesus’ name and it shall be done.

      • Flopsy says:

        I have never herd anyone say we can’t talk to God. We can.
        Christ said to the apostles, the first Priests, “whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven them, whose sins you shall retain shall be retained” – so a Priest has the power to forgive sins in Christ’s name.
        Just a question: was the Catholic Church you attended a novus ordo or traditional one? i.e. Was the mass said in English or Latin, facing the people or facing God?

        • Lion & Lamb says:

           In this passage Jesus is speaking to His disciples when He blows on them. This is the meaning of the Greek word, EMPHYSAO. This word is used only here in John. Then Jesus says, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” This is a symbolic statement of a future event. They did not receive the Holy Spirit here at this time because the Holy Spirit was not yet living inside men and women. Jesus had said this several times earlier when He had said the Holy Spirit was not yet present (John 7:39; 16:7). The Holy Spirit did not arrive until after Jesus’ death, resurrection and ascension (Acts 1:9-11). In Acts 1:4-5, Jesus tells them they must remain in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit comes. The Holy Spirit began indwelling men and women in Acts 2:1-4. This is a significant event in the life of the disciples. It was a promise of the Comforter to a group of weary apostles. A promise that would come true in only a few days.
                Now for the most confusing portion of this passage. Jesus uses a Greek verb, APHIEMI, for “forgive” two times. The first time He says “If you forgive” He uses an aorist active subjunctive tense. An aorist tense means an event occurred at some point in time. It would be like someone saying, “I dropped a coin today.” It is something that just happened. The second time Jesus uses APHIEMI, He changes the verb to a perfect passive indicative tense. This is significant. A perfect tense means something happened somewhere in past time and the results continue into the present time. It would be like saying, “I dropped a coin a week ago and it is still dropping today.” So we have a situation where a person drops a coin, but the coin has already been dropped and is still dropping.
              The perfect tense in combination with the passive means someone did the action on the one forgiven. Who did the forgiving in time past before the apostles did anything? It was God! So in summary, there are two reasons to conclude that the apostles are not doing the forgiving. The sins were already forgiven in the past and they are still forgiven, and they were forgiven by God.
              What was Jesus saying? He was simply saying the apostles would be declaring something that had already occurred. The apostles knew when God had forgiven a man or woman of sins. We can know this too. A man or woman is only forgiven by faith, that is, by trusting in Jesus Christ. 1 John 5:13 tells us that we can know we have eternal life – we can know that we are going to heaven. This occurs when we stop trying to do good deeds (Eph. 2:8-9) and just simply do nothing else but trust Jesus (1 John 3:23) to forgive all of our sins for all time (Heb. 10:10). For a true Christian, there is no future sin that God has not already been forgiven. The disciples could tell a person their sins were forgiven, but in reality forgiveness had already been granted by God through faith in Jesus. Only God can forgive sins (Mark 2:5-9). Jesus was not giving the apostles divine authority. Jesus was allowing them to help others know that their sins were forgiven, if in fact they trusted in Jesus. The apostles were stating something that had already occurred. The Greek text makes this very clear

  2. Del says:

    Flopsy,

    In scripture it says: Romans 10:9-10
    New International Version (NIV) 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
    It is as simple as that. It doesn’t say if you are a catholic, or Protestant, or such and such you will be saved or you won’t be saved. BUT, there is a clear instruction in the bible that prohibits us from worshiping IDOLS..and the bible’s definition what an IDOL is, anything that is made out of hands and is formed into the likeness of something. It is important to defend the teaching of the Bible, not traditions, not principles of ideology. 2 Timothy 3:16 says, (New Living Translation) All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.

    Therefore, it is proper to defend our tradition, values, conviction and such for as long as it is instructed in the scripture, because the Word of God (Bible) is our spiritual food. We start feeding our spiritual life apart from what’s in the scripture, we are either fools or deceived.

    Below is a scripture of an instruction about iDOL or carved image. Pay close attention to verse 12-20, where God is obviously very sarcastic about this whole idolatry.
    Isaiah 44:9-20
    New International Version (NIV)
    9 All who make idols are nothing,
    and the things they treasure are worthless.
    Those who would speak up for them are blind;
    they are ignorant, to their own shame.
    10 Who shapes a god and casts an idol,
    which can profit nothing?
    11 People who do that will be put to shame;
    such craftsmen are only human beings.
    Let them all come together and take their stand;
    they will be brought down to terror and shame.
    12 The blacksmith takes a tool
    and works with it in the coals;
    he shapes an idol with hammers,
    he forges it with the might of his arm.
    He gets hungry and loses his strength;
    he drinks no water and grows faint.
    13 The carpenter measures with a line
    and makes an outline with a marker;
    he roughs it out with chisels
    and marks it with compasses.
    He shapes it in human form,
    human form in all its glory,
    that it may dwell in a shrine.
    14 He cut down cedars,
    or perhaps took a cypress or oak.
    He let it grow among the trees of the forest,
    or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow.
    15 It is used as fuel for burning;
    some of it he takes and warms himself,
    he kindles a fire and bakes bread.
    But he also fashions a god and worships it;
    he makes an idol and bows down to it.
    16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire;
    over it he prepares his meal,
    he roasts his meat and eats his fill.
    He also warms himself and says,
    “Ah! I am warm; I see the fire.”
    17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol;
    he bows down to it and worships.
    He prays to it and says,
    “Save me! You are my god!”
    18 They know nothing, they understand nothing;
    their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see,
    and their minds closed so they cannot understand.
    19 No one stops to think,
    no one has the knowledge or understanding to say,
    “Half of it I used for fuel;
    I even baked bread over its coals,
    I roasted meat and I ate.
    Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left?
    Shall I bow down to a block of wood?”
    20 Such a person feeds on ashes; a deluded heart misleads him;
    he cannot save himself, or say, “Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?”

    As far as what you said the Bible says about “Hail Mary full of grace”. In the scripture the angel did not say “Hail Mary” because angels were instructed not to hail on anyone but God, and Mary isn’t God. But the angel simply say, in verse 30 “you have found favor with God”. And on verse 37, with God everything is impossible….simply describing God’s ability, That God is capable of using whomever He chooses to use or chooses to do to bring glory to His name, that goes with Mary being favored by God and Elizabeth conceiving at an old age, or you and me or anyone else can be used for whatever purpose God wants us to use for His glory.

    Below is what actually the scripture says.
    Luke 1:26-37
    The Birth of Jesus Foretold

    26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

    29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

    34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

    35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you,and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[a] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”

    38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

    As for Elizabeth being referred to as “saint”. Just wanna share a thought about this.

    The word “SAINT” comes from the Greek wordhagios, which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious.

    Paul then in several of his writing, says that all who believed in Jesus Christ are “saints”,
    1 Corinthians 1: 2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

    Ephesians 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for rbuilding up sthe body of Christ,

    Above, are just a few verses relating to the people of God as saints. “Saints” are people and are not worthy of worship. Mary is a saint, just as you and me are a saint if we are set apart for God. If you believe that Mary can intercede for you, then we can all (saints here on earth) intercede for one another, praying with one another, sharing each other’s burden. Having to go to a carven image to intercede for us is not biblical, and if not biblical then there is no truth to it, therefore it’s a lie. Because the Word of God is our compass! If there is any instruction for us, Jesus simply say come to me, but nothing in the bible that says go to Mary. But Jesus says,

    Matthew 11:28-30
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

    John 14:6 Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life.No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

    John 14: 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

    Again, there is no inclusion of Mary in the above verses. Jesus keeps repeating, that it’s only in His name and no other name.

    I had few Catholics in my bible study group. They are great women and love The Lord so much but they were very surprised when they began to read the bible that there is so much they did not know about the scripture. I do not know so much about the Catholic but according to these ladies, they really never open or owned a bible before joining our bible study because the bible was only used by the priest. In our bible study, we go through lots of scriptures which they claim have open their eyes and grow their relationship with The Lord. I did not contradict their belief, nor corrected them that their belief was wrong but they claim the scripture convicted them.

  3. Lindy says:

    Amen to Del! A good dose of TRUTH is so good to hear! Thank you…thank you!!! So much deception:(. When we pray to anyone other than God the Father in the Name of Jesus, we are worshipping and praying to nothing but an idol. John 3:16-17 is clear”
    16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world THROUGH HIM might be saved.” we are saved through Christ Jesus…not Mary. If you have an argument with these verses and the rest of the Bible, then you can take that up with the Lord, as it is HIS Word and it is truth. Praying that the Lord would clear the thick webs of deception from your eyes Flopsy, that Satan has so craftily webbed. Jesus said “You shall know the TRUTH and the TRUTH will set you free”.

    • scandela2 says:

      Amen Del! Great post.

    • Flopsy says:

      For the last time – we don’t worship Mary.
      Satan has “craftily webbed” any web of deception in front of my eyes. I hate him and always have.
      It seems you have all formed opinions and refuse to let go of them, which is not an attractive trait. Last Hiker, you haven’t posted any of the things I have said in defence – you will not post something that is in defence of something far older than your religion! You will agree that Mary is the Mother of Jesus, but you will not say that she is the Mother of GOD. In denying that she is the Mother of God you deny Christ’s divinity

      • Hi Flopsy, I am not sure what you mean that I am not posting your comments. The very last thing I did before bed last night was post one of your comments. I didn’t want to post it until I had time to respond to it either, but I figured it was part of an ongoing conversation with other people, so I chose to keep it going, and just respond this morning.

        We do believe that Mary is the mother of God, although we do believe that she was just a sweet, God loving, young girl. We do not believe that she was resurrected. We don’t believe she was sinless, we don’t believe she is omniscient or omnipresent (so she can’t hear our prayers). She was a special woman, but I think she would be disappointed in people praying to her, and giving her so much attention–she would do as all the angels in revelation and say, why are you bowing to me? There is only one God, bow to Him! Anyways, I will go get a cup of tea and some berries and respond to the post I published last night!

        • Deanna Clark says:

          Catholics are not always very bright about their faith…ask them anything and they will say, “Gee, I dunno, go ask a priest.” They never pray to Mary or any human…they ask those in Heaven to pray for them. It’s the Communion of Saints in the Nicene creed, the rock of the Council of Nicea that confirmed our faith against Arianism and other heresies.

          All I ask, as a Catholic, is that if you want to lambast the church, you lambast in truth and facts, not ignorance. That’s only fair.

          • Deanna, you say you don’t pray to them, you ask them to pray for you. So in asking them you are praying to them. The word “pray” is defined as, “used as a preface to polite requests or instructions.”

            So in praying to the saints, you are asking for their help. Their prayers. I don’t care what the Nicene Creed says. You can’t talk to dead people. They can’t hear you. You can’t elevate the religious decrees of men to the level of Scripture.

            But the Catholic church doesn’t believe that. Because they elevate the beliefs of the Pope to the level of Scripture.

            What isn’t fair is trying to have a conversation about prayer and someone trying to redefine what the word prayer means.

            “We don’t pray to saints, we just ask them . . .”

            It is the same thing.

          • Deanna Clark says:

            The council of Nicea was convened by Constantine precisely to define what Christianity was, . It compiled the New Testament, tossing out many gospels with magic, gnosticism, etc. It rejected, thanks to Athanasius, the Arian heresy. It decided, once and for all, the definition of Christianity, and the Scriptures that were Holy canon as well as those that were not. period. He had chosen Christianity as the official religion of the Empire and, being a Roman, wanted an exact legal definition of everything. The creed is used by all the churches.

            If you ask someone to pray for you, you are not.elevating them in esteem above God. If you reject Nicea and the creed, you reject the Bible, too, and the “cloud of witnesses” that are in Heaven…you also reject the vast, vast majority of other Christians both here and hereafter.

          • Oh my goodness! I am not rejecting the Bible. I am rejecting asking dead people to pray for you! I also reject Constantine as my spiritual advisor. He was a compromiser, renaming his pagan idols with the names of “saints.”

  4. Del says:

    Flopsy,

    I apologize for adding Mary to the Hail full of grace. I did that because if you said Hail full of grace, doesn’t that raise an eyebrow? You aren’t really saying full of grace to Hail, as hail full of grace, you said. So I assumed that it has to be “hail ? full of grace. Who is it in between hail and full of grace because that’s definitely a question mark right there, and since the whole passage is talking about Mary, I took the liberty in completing the hail ? Full of grace to Hail Mary full of grace. That makes more sense than hail full of grace.

    I am not familiar with Douay Rheims bible, so as many Christians all over the world unless they were once Catholics or unless they were or they are studying differences in religion. Many Christians simply use the ” BIBLE”. I encourage you to own a “BIBLE” the one that’s being used worldwide for all Christian denominations and compare it to your bible cover to cover. That’s the thing I enjoy being a Christian about, is the freedom to search the truth and that is by going what the scripture says. If I hear a teaching or a preaching that is a little off, I go to The Lord and I go to the Bible to seek the truth We have the freedom to search and when we do, we go directly to the scripture because all instructions are written there. If we live our lives and say that we are Christ centered and do not really feed on His word and do not spend time with Him, then I don’t know how we can be filled with Christ likeness, because to know the bible is to know Jesus Christ and no one else. As I mentioned in my previous post, I do not know so much about the Catholic religion except from what I have been informed with by the few ladies n our bible study who were once Catholcs and also one of the ladies in my bible study was a catholic who actually attended the convent for 2 years until she realized that she wanted to get married someday so she got out. But even after getting out, she was a catholic devout (as she put it) until she visited our bible study. I passed her one of our extra bibles, and she says, she doesn’t open and read those. I told her it’s ok. She was very skeptical. Lo and behold, we were studying about an incorruptible God that led her to defend her position and her belief. I encouraged her to continue to attend and if the bible is wrong, I will join her in her religion and if the bible is right her life will be changed. I wasn’t going to change any of their views or belief,, but I know there is so much power in knowing the truth (the Bible) and that will set each of us free. It took her about two months to get comfortable reading the bible but because she was very open, she grew out of using her rosary (which she carried with her all the time) to just directly going and talking before The Lord. She started attending our church and slowly decreasing attendance at the Catholic Church until she left the Catholic Church. I never invited her, but her openness to the truth set her eyes open and realized, that all her life she had been going to the priest for confession, to pray the rosary ( correct me if I put it wrong), and repeats her prayer over and over again (a memorized prayer), when all she has to do is go before The Lord and pray directly to Him without the rosary, without Mary or any other statue as you call it, to mediate for her , nor do a confession to the priest, that we can confess our sins to one another and pray for another and that is also in the scripture, 1 john 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sinss and purify us from all unrighteousness. She found out that everything I was saying can be found in the scripture and she and I would open the bible together and I let her read. I encouraged her to just simply pray to The Lord. It is so beautiful to praise God in fellowship where each one of us can all pray one by one. We have a number of Catholics in our group who really enjoyed their new found freedom, the freedom to worship God directly. Most of all, they are very happy that their kids are now also attending children’s church, where their kids learn the scripture at such a young age too. They go to their own Sunday School class while they said in the Catholic their kids sit in the church with them, getting bored most of the time (their words not mine since I didn’t know that was the case). The kids get out of the Sunday school class all fired up with songs they learn and scriptures they learn about Jesus, just Jesus!

    I am not going to convince you to turn away from your belief, but, I encourage you to seek further and leave the idea behind that if you do, you will betray your church, but just for the idea of comparing what you have been raised with as far as doctrine is concerned to other Christian doctrine. Just be open and see if you could find someone from a biblical preaching church who you can compassionately agree and disagree. Find a biblical teaching church and ask for someone you can talk to. You don’t necessarily need to attend their church and leave the Catholic Church. Stay true to the Catholic belief but keep an open mind at the same time and see what a bible preaching church has to say. You owe it yourself to investigate and if we are wrong and you are right then you can actually say, I did my investigation, I asked questions from other biblical preaching churches. I just wanna let you know, there is such freedom to know that we are not bound by traditions and human law but by the law of God! I was a self proclaimed atheist until 2005 when I debated with a Christian that (I’ll used the word “p”, me off because that’s how I felt), and with my anger, I searched and joined a bible study. I was very distractive for about a year because I insisted on my atheistic belief (whatever that is) on them. One night, I decided to just go at the study and be opened and leave aside my views and beliefs for once, and all he’ll broke loose in a good way. I went home and my life was changed, by just a simple act of “open mindedness to the truth”. I received Christ that night on my own in my bedroom down on my knees on the floor bowed down before God. The power that came upon me was unbeatable and it was God! From knowing the truth, I became a changed person. Who would think that from someone who hated God to someone who now is inlove with God and called to serve God and preach His Words to a bible study group, watching eyes open to the truth. I was a very successful career woman here in the US from Asia but when Christ came into my life, my career becomes secondary and and put my priority in evangelizing because I have experienced first hand the changing power of knowing the truth.

    As far as statue versus an idol is concerned, again as I said, whatever I said were not my opinion but according to what the bible says. The bible did not say statue but says it as it is “IDOL”. If you go back to the whole scripture I shared in Isaiah, I will simplify it, it says, , made by man who gets hungry, and gets tired, ( which God is angrily saying, how stupid it is that you would go before a thing that made up of human, and that human is like you, he gets hungry, gets tired and such, and God’s purpose in making this statement, is to catch our attention from that carved image to Him, He is saying in that verse, don’t worship that or talk to that, I AM HERE)! God would not have put that in the scripture if he didn’t know that there would be people who would do exactly that, they had been warned long before but people choose to disregard that). Again God continues in that scripture, he says, it’s curved out of wood and they make it to a shrine, they measure it, chisel it. The craftsman uses part of the wood for cooking, to warm himself and he even says, oh I’m warmth but then he makes part of it to a god an idol. The scripture wasn’t light about this whole thing so instead of using statue simply uses “idol”, because the statue is made of wood or better yet made of human hands, similar to the idol that’s described n Isaiah.

    When Paul calls the believers a saint and when he describes all who believe in Christ are saints, it is a humbling position to be, that the humility that comes from being called a saint just by being set apart for God prevents us from going and walking around calling ourselves “saint”, unless he or she is a crackpot and have not really been transformed by the grace of God. Being transformed by the “grace” prevents one from lifting self up because it leaves a bad in taste in the mouth to even put oneself up, so no one who has been transformed by the grace can go bragging about being a saint, but it is a title you keep dearly to your heart because The Lord considers you a saint. Once you become Christ centered and others centered, pride has no place in your life, so being called a saint isn’t to be “perceived” as a title that makes you better than others. It is simply a position we have been granted when we set our life for Christ, it is in our heart not in our head, it is a position that makes us humble before others and not pride ourself to them.

    You stand with a different doctrine, very different to the doctrine that had changed my life, and not only changed my life but continues to change other’s lives before my eyes, therefore I am very passionate to speak it to you to seek it. Stay in your doctrine if you wish, but be open to seek the scripture. If you believe that everything I said is my own opinion please find someone and talk to someone from a biblical preaching church to explain them better to you. For I do believe that my opinion is a waste and it holds nothing except the truth that CHRIST is the one and only mediator, therefore my opinion is worthy of investigation and you owe those answers to your self. Having to insist on the doctrine you been raised with and are not open to hear and see (by speaking personally with someone) what they can share you with is not worthy of having anymore discussion. I have learned as much as I need about the Catholic religion by these ladies who were once that and left the Catholic not by my force but by the force of the truth. From them I have learned the basics of Catholicism and is enough for me to encourage you to be open and hear other biblical based doctrines. If you don’t wish to do that, I can tell you how much you are going to miss, especially the beauty of reading the scripture, the beauty of just simply conversing with Jesus (just you and Him) pouring out to Him your all in all and n return you feel His presence, the beauty of being n His presence not n the presence of Mary. That even there is no statue as a representative, He makes Himself known to you, as you commune with Him, you fellowship with Him, you talk to Him. That is when you know the power of Jesus, that even there is no statue before you of Him, that He is able to make you feel that His arms are wrapped around you, that when you cry and go before Him, he makes you feel He is drying your tears and giving you such a great peace and comfort. That is exactly why God wants to remove any statue before us because He wants us to enjoy the power of His presence by just going to Him and in return credit to Him everything, not in the power of Mary or any representation of statue for us. You will discover there is so much appearing of God in our life without the help of the statues. He can manifest in our life more than you know it, and when He does, it will humble you. I am not saying I have seen Jesus in person, but He’d manifest Himself to me and to all Christians who just go humbly before Him, all the time in so many ways, and when He does, the credit goes straight to Him. I have no intention to change you from your belief, but please do not deny yourself from experiencing the beauty of directly going to Father n Jesus name, no rosary, no repeated memorized prayers, no statue but just simply you and Him pouring out your heart to Him as you would to your friend. Tell him anything even just your plan to go to the store, talk to Him about that and as you get used to just laying all your plans to Him, you’ll find the miracle of having Jesus as our best friend, our best buddy that we can actually tell Him anything, we can even tell Him when we are angry, He won’t zap us but instead He will pacify our anger and before you know it love replaces anger. Try it sometime, just you and Him without your statue. Most of the Catholic women said, they didn’t know how to pray. Well, praying is simply talking to God as you would to a friend except that He listens better than a friend and He answers prayers sometimes in the way we want it or sometimes in the way we don’t want it but it grows us.
    The choice is yours. If you feel that I have become an offense in the way I presented the TRUTH that changed a once godless person to a person in love with God (me), I apologize.

    • Thank you Del, for sharing.

    • Flopsy says:

      Sorry, yes I do get very protective of my Faith :) I love my Faith and it is something I would never give up. Until I was 14 I was not a good girl. I hated going to church and I hated to pray. On top of that I was a slut. One day I realised how low I had sunk, but I felt that a God would never forgive me because I was too bad. I wanted to kill myself, because even though I would go to hell I wouldn’t be able to sin anymore. I joined the Sodality of the Children of Mary – a group of young girls under the patronage of Mary who were expected to set a good example to others in behaviour, dress, etc. I joined only for the pretty cloak they got to wear for Mass. Then one night I had a dream. There was a Priest who pointed out the error of my ways and told me I was going to go to hell if I did not change, but that he and others would help me to get to heaven if I wanted to try. I woke up the next morning and literally leaped out of bed to go to mass and confession. My love for Jesus made me so exceedingly happy, and the knowledge that He loved me back made me even happier. I finally felt that someone loved me, all my life I had felt unloved and unwanted. Now Someone wanted me. I sought out a Priest to guide me and in him I found a kind and virtuous father, always willing to give up time to answer any questions or worries. He is still here today.
      In defence of saints being able to hear our prayers…I formed a strong devotion to two saints, both Priests who were martyred for their Faith within the last 200 years. I asked them to be with me, and from that day on they joined my guardian Angel by my side. Coming from an unhappy family I was often upset, but they were always there for me. They helped me through the first stages of my new life, teaching me to love Jesus more and more. Once I found a confessor I saw them less often, though I still felt their presence. They showed themselves from time to time when I needed them, but soon I did not see them at all. Now I only see them very rarely – once a year at the most. But I know they are always there and if I call upon them their presence is always made known.
      They are SAINTS and they have never been unwilling to take my requests to Jesus. They lead me by good example to be a good Catholic and to help me get to heaven. That is what Saints do.

      There are a lot of naked pieces of artwork in the Vatican palace, not in the church itself. This is because they were made in the renaissance, the so called Age of Enlightenment. Michael Angelo had a thing for nudity…Over the years many have been covered to make them more modest. Pope John Paul II had the coverings removed and I don’t know why, but then he wasn’t a good Pope. The statues are not of pagan deities but of persons from the Bible.

      I do read the Bible, but I tend to stick to the New Testament.

      The Blessed Virgin never sinned.

      I often talk to Jesus without a statue or crucifix, He isn’t my buddy, He is my Love, He is my everything

      • Flopsy, I don’t know how many more comments I am going to post. I do not feel like my blog is the proper place for an extended “argument” about these issues. And as much as I like to talk to you about your beliefs, I also want to be careful as to not give you a platform to spread false teaching. I think this conversation would be better suited for an online forum, not a comment section.

        Anyways, this comment you made left me extremely disturbed.

        You are saying that you have a strong devotion to two saints, that appear to you. Did they speak to you?

        Flopsy, I believe that these are demonic spirits. You have not been led to truth, you have been led to error. And you are making gross excuses for pagan artwork at the Vatican. And you are sticking to the idea that Mary never sinned. This is blasphemy.

        The saints (dead Christians) are not ghosts or angels that roam the planet answering prayers and “making their presence known”– this is very disturbing Flopsy.

        The Bible clearly teaches that they are in the presence of the Lord. They are not guardian angels. What you are experiencing sounds MUCH more like familiar spirits.

        You must be very careful.

        The enemy is crafty and he will deceive you. The Bible says, “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.” 2 Corinthians 11:13-15.

        You are talking to spirits, instead of God.

        Why?

        Why don’t you just talk to God Himself?

        Do you love these spirits and the idea of Mary more than God?

        You are practicing idolatry Mary, and it opens you up to demonic experiences. You need to repent. They are not leading you to heaven, they are leading you to a false gospel, and other saviors. I am very very concerned for you.

        • Flopsy says:

          There is absolutely no possibility that they are demonic spirits, they have encouraged me to do only good, and they have defended me against satan many times. If they speak to me it is only ever a few words
          I have always been very aware of the supernatural, my dad is like that too. If there is something evil about I am very quick to notice it, while others sense nothing wrong.
          I do not love them more than Mary or more than God. They teach me to love Him more. I didn’t say they were guardian angels, but that they behaved in a similar way.
          Yours is the false doctrine dear.
          I’ll see you at the judgement seat. You might notice Mary will be there to intercede for me with her Son.
          God bless

          • Wow … just wow.

            You’ll see me at the judgment seat? You say that all threateningly. Like you will be there with your arms crossed and Mary at your back, as I am getting ready to get zapped for my “false doctrine” . . . Well, whatever. I can see that you don’t want to hear from me, so I guess this is where we will stop this conversation.

            I still stand by what I say. And I hope the Lord draws you to the truth someday.

          • Tammy says:

            Flopsy those of us who go by the bible only and completely know sadly that you are being horribly deceived and are all going to pray for you to see truth and hear truth from the word of God only. Mary was just as much in need of the savior as any human being she was just simply human and not deity as Christ was before the foundations of the earth were laid. John 1: the whole chapter.

            Hiker you have it completely right many blessings sister. This was an excellent post and right on. I adore the truth of the word of God and have endured such persecution for my understanding of the word of god against this very wrong and even heretical depiction of our Lord through Mark and Roma’s ridiculous work. 20 Million dollars to mislead people for real?

  5. Anonymous says:

    Praying for her…very sad. Good wisdom/advice Hiker….

    • Flopsy says:

      Sorry no I didn’t mean it threateningly. We will both be judged the same way. Sorry if it came across wrong. I meant we will see then whose doctrine is the wrong one, but considering devotion to the Blessed Virgin and the Saints is older than any Protestant religion…it’s more like the Catholic Faith is the true one
      In the end we are both fighting against a common enemy and we worship the same God :)

  6. lyn says:

    Flopsy,

    The Roman Catholic church does not worship the God of the Bible. They twist verse after verse to fit their own theology, for example, upholding the office of the pope and claiming Peter was the first pope. Peter tells us what he actually was in 1 Peter 5:1, ‘The elders therefore among you I exhort, who am a fellow–elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, who am also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed’. Peter was an elder, which is from the Greek word sumpresbuteros. This is made up of two words, ‘sun’ which denotes union, together, with, by association – and ‘presbuteros’ which Thayer’s Greek definitions defines as ‘among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably’. In other words, Peter was a pastor/preacher/leader of the church. He wasn’t in charge of all churches, nor did Christ put Peter as the head over His church. The scriptures clearly teach that Christ is the Head of His church- ‘And he is the head of the body, the church:’ Col. 1:18a
    ‘For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, being himself the saviour of the body. ‘ Ephesians 5:23

    Another example is praying to Mary, who was a sinner saved by God’s grace, like all other sinners God saves. Who does Christ tell us to pray to? “After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.” Matthew 6:9 There isn’t a verse in all of scripture that commands prayer to Mary. There isn’t a verse in all of the Bible that states, as you claim, the catholic faith is the ‘true one’. Where does the Bible command us to follow a man-made religion? Christ proves you to be a liar, for He commands His sheep -“If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” Matthew 16:24
    May God cause you to put down the doctrines invented by the RCC and open the Bible, the only source of truth God’s true sheep have. May God open your understanding, may His mercy and grace cause you to be born again by the power of God the Spirit. Your loyalty to your religion will not save your soul on that final day.

  7. Anonymous says:

    So if this Jesus is made out to be a Hebrew Bieber, does that mean we should refer to this different Jesus as “the Hiebs?” Hmm? Hmmmmmmm? Seriously though, this post raises some good points about the movie.

  8. Adam Phillips says:

    Just a thought….. Maybe instead of finding everything that is bad with the movie, you rejoice in the thought that those that know nothing of Christ have an avenue now to feel the Holy Spirit. I feel bad that you attack other religions that teach of Christ and who are likely to be far more worthy of Gods blessings than someone that will pick a movie apart and not understand the big picture. You are convicted in what you have been tought, but a true Christian will never bad mouth another religion no matter what they may think. Your “judgement” is out of line. Who cares if someone gets paid for making a movie.
    By the way…. I have freinds that are Mormon and although I don’t necessarily believe in all that it teaches, I do know they are the best people I know. They have hi moral standards and are truly Christ like in the way they deal with me and others. Anyone of them would give the shirt off there back for me, regardless of weather I ask or not for it. Reading your blog makes me feel sick and honestly sounds a lot like something satan would put in someone’s heart to lead Gods children astray. Thank you Jesus for the ability to know the difference between good and evil.

    • Adam, Jesus gives us the ability to know good from evil. Yes. It is called the Bible. Any personal inclination you might have toward good and evil (apart from the Word of God) puts you back at the Tree of Knowledge, talking to a serpent. So you may accuse me of being used by the devil, but I am only pointing to the Word of God. The one who is used by the devil is the one who hands someone a piece of fruit saying, “you shall not die.”

    • Jenny says:

      This Jesus that is being preached is not the Jesus of the Bible. He is a new age Jesus that does not preach repentance. Without repentance there is no remission of sins so people are getting a feel good Jesus that doesn’t save.
      I wonder how much time you spend reading your Bible? Because everything you are saying is from the spirit of anti-Christ. I John 2:22 who is te anti Christ? The one who denies the Father and the Son. He who denies the Son does not have the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also. The Mormons deny the deity of Christ. It doesn’t matter how good a person is, their own goodness won’t save them. If you care about people you will want to save their souls from eternal hell. Instead you pat people on the back and encourage falsehood.Ephesians 5:11 have no fellowship with the unfruitful deeds if darkness, but rather expose them. I would encourage you to read your Bible so you will know the wolves in sheeps clothing.

  9. steveangier says:

    Thank you for your article. I too was very disturbed by the Bible mini-series. The only time I watched it was when I sat with my family in front of the TV and watched about 5 minutes of Joshua / the two spies and Rahab at Jericho before I had to turn it off. We then got out the bible and read the actual narrative and I explained why the TV show was so wrong — and not just in “artistic license” but in, as you say, the nature of God himself.

    I have since taken the view that I should have persevered to watch the mini-series on my own so I could be equipped to discuss the show and its inaccuracies with non-Christians — and bring them to the real bible.

  10. Deanna Clark says:

    I don’t think this is the place to argue about “Hail” and such things. We are together in loathing this man-centered mysticism, this new age spiritism and hence weakening of Christianity. At bottom is not a statue of Mary or a waspish cutting of other churches. This is SERIOUS. The real issue is denial of the Word made flesh to dwell among us…the Incarnation of God to prove His love for all. In this every true Christian places his whole life. Catholics believe it, Orthodox, BAPTISTS…defend Jesus Christ.
    We are being led to give up our freedom, our faith, our property, our justice system and say, “I won’t lose my peace over it…let’s do yoga and meditate.”
    Seek God? The Christian knows that God came here to us, seeking us…only sincere acceptance of the gift is needed…and accepting the responsibility of living up to such a gift.

  11. Bobbie Lively says:

    The truth is either all truth or it is a lie.

  12. elaine says:

    I’m glad you made this post. I remember watching this with my family, anticipating a good visual to what we grew up with only to have us annoyed and switching the channel. Just like the movie Noah, I hated this series before it even went 2 minutes in, all the inaccuracies were extremely discouraging. The deceit in changing small events builds up after time and I pray that Christians will expose this falsehood and prevent others from falling further into the pits of the lies.

    • scandela2 says:

      I couldn’t agree with you more!! These people making these movies are just out to make money – any way they can. And if that means portraying untruths then they’ll do it. They could care less.

  13. I honestly had NO idea, I had only watched “Son of God’ once, we noticed things that were different. But again like I said didn’t watch it again I was kinda iffy on the movie honestly, I thought I”d like it more. At first right after watching it I was happy sorta. But I knew alot of the things in it were not right. Parts that they changed. You are right thought Hot Jesus…not true at all. You are also very brave to stand up against them. I had not seen any of the Series they are making at this point, so I wasn’t pulled in on that end. I just saw articles about them and thought they were Christians. I was kind of happy to find out the actres was really a Christian because I liked the series. I’m so mad at her right now. GRRR Wolf in sheeps clothing she is so much!

  14. I dunno… I thought Noah was worse than the Bible series. But, I still don’t get how nobody noticed the gay Prince Charming scene about Jesus though…

    • Tammy says:

      I never went to see the movie because the History channel one was so bad that i refused to spend money or time going to see the same people create a travesty that has nothing to do with truth. So that is my excuse for not seeing anything about a gay scene ugh gross though!

  15. I can’t think of a single, solitary movie that has ever been made that accurately follows the Bible. Not one. I saw the Bible series on THC. Sure, I saw some flaws but I can’t say there was anything that overly disturbed me. Best not to try and swallow a camel while straining on a gnat. There are MUCH bigger and clearer evils to battle. To wit, are the specifics you listed about Downey communicating with the dead thru a psychic. A clear sin. And why go on Oprah (an indisputable Unbeliever) to promote the movie? It is duplicitous at best. As is associating and having your picture taken with the Osteen’s. Given that Protestants are still an Anathema to Catholics, I don’t get their marriage either and that’s a fair topic for discussion. But this movie? I don’t think so. If God can speak thru a donkey and thru Unbelievers, He can certainly speak thru this movie. I mean it’s not overtly blasphemous or preaching a different Jesus.

    Also, remember, we are not to bear false witness. Speaking of Rick Warren and saying, “I mean he is really a closeted New Ager and New World Order promoter himself.”; is sin. If he’s in the closet, then you do NOT know. You are not omniscient and therefore, since he claims to be a Brother, should treat him as one UNTIL such time he clearly shows himself to be otherwise. It would do you well to remember what our Lord has to say about our love for the brethren. Many times but specifically 1st Jn. 3:14. We MUST be absolutely certain before we call someone an Unbeliever or a Wolf. To do otherwise is sin and puts us in opposition to God.

    • Hi Royce,

      Thank you for taking the time to read that long blog and share your thoughts! I think that although there are not perfect movies on the life of Christ, there certainly are much better ones that don’t twist his nature to make him a celebrity. I honestly do think this film is more dangerous than the other ones. How can it not be with the background of the Producers? They do have an agenda. Here is an article that I would love for you to read, by Sunny Shell, “Movie Review: “The Son of God” is Most Certainly Not the Son of God.” This article was widely circulated by well respected discernment websites. It is a wonderful and thorough explanation of how the movie twists the nature and truth of the Gospel, and how it can’t be used like Balaam’s donkey to speak truth, because it changes the truth. (Balaam’s donkey didn’t twist the facts).

      As far as Rick Warren’s New Age associations, when I say “closeted” I don’t mean unknown. They are well documented. I just mean that he has earned the trust of a lot of Christians, but he has brought in and engineered programs that bring New Age into the church. Her is an article from the very well respected Lighthouse Trails website, which even produces tracts on this issue to warn Christians. Rick Warren has even gone as far as to write up a global peace plan which he has spoke on the floor of the United Nations on. He is a globalist, seeking to unite with other religions for peace. In the word P.E.A.C.E. he has two e’s and not one of them stands for evangelism. It may say plant churches that promote reconciliation; but that means change. If you look at his church planting vision. He uses the Hegalian Dialectic principles to socially engineer the beliefs of the people in his small groups, to pull them away from dogmatic truth and into compromise for the sake of unity. There is SO MUCH information about this out there. Just google “Rick Warren Hegelian Dialectic” and you will find multitudes of well written articles or even long public lectures that show that this is a method of social engineering directed at Christians, to transform them. He thinks he can bring global peace without the gospel of Christ. That is the false doctrine dominionism, except without Christ. It sounds strikingly similar to what we read about in the Bible. Here is a link to a list of articles about Rick Warren’s global peace plan.

      Think about it, this guy spoke at the UN Interfaith Breakfast and told leaders of other religions:

      “If there is anything that I want to say in my few moments [to you] is this, God is with you…. Last night I was invited to speak here in New York City to the Council for Foreign Relations and they asked me to speak on … our global P.E.A.C.E. Plan. For the last twenty five years I have been training around the world … foreign pastors and ministers and priests and I have trained about 400,000 clergy and pastors in 162 countries. Most likely I have been in your country.”

      In referring to God wanting a relationship with people, Warren says, “I’m not talking about a religion this morning. Ok? You may be Catholic or Protestant or Buddhist or Baptist or Muslim or Mormon or Jewish … or you have no religion at all. I’m not interested in your religious background. Because God did not create the universe for us to have a religion.”

      The things that come out of his mouth are preparing the church for a great falling away, and compromise that Jesus warned about. I can’t apologize for speaking out against him. He is a false teacher, like those spoken of in 2 Peter and Jude. I do apologize for throwing out that he is a closeted New Ager without giving this information to help readers who have never heard of his globalist, uniting the religions for peace, ecumenical, and New Age false teaching. When I initially wrote this article I didn’t expect many people to read it, the person I wrote it for already knew about Rick Warren, so I didn’t spend time getting off topic to explain all that.

      But anyways, thank you for sharing your thoughts. And I hope and pray that you agree that these are very troubling times for the church. May the Lord lead us like a Shepherd and may His sheep not follow the voice of another. God bless you Royce.

      • Yes, I most certainly agree that these are very troubling times for the Church. I read the article by Sunny Shell. I’m sorry that you do not see the truth of what she is doing in that there is much to do about nothing in some cases but worst there is bearing false witness in others.

        Here are just 2 examples from the first two things commented on. In her first comments about the calling of Peter. Neither she, I, or you were there. We cannot dogmatically claim how Peter was called. Yes, Jesus is Lord. But Jesus also humbled Himself as a man. This is much to do about nothing. It’s choking on a gnat.

        As to the comment about Mary being a 13th Apostle. That’s outright bearing False Witness. Criticize the movie for placing an undo importance or significance on Mary if you choose. That’s a subjective and fair criticism. But to claim the movie calls her a 13th Apostle is just flat out deceiving and sinful.

        But I’m NOT going to call her a False Teacher or Unbeliever!

        Wrt your comments about Rick Warren, much of the same thing has been done about him. For example, I totally agree with Warren when he said, “Because God did not create the universe for us to have a religion.” Granted, there are some things he says and does that concern me and I think he could’ve said or done in a much better way. But I’ve followed him fairly closely and he’s never crossed the line. He has consistently stayed true to what he wrote in the first line of the PDL book… “It’s not about you. You were created by God for God.” And he has consistently said that Jesus is the ONLY way. Despite what critics continue to claim. That is the truth.

        So on this we will have to agree to disagree. This subject/issue of being a “Watchman” is something I’ve been keen to for some time. Most certainly we must stay awake and exercise the greatest discernment in what is being taught these days. Most certainly we are in a time where false teachers and wolves are running rampant. Many outright and openly preaching a false Gospel. A false Christ. A false God.

        But I have also battled with those who are in bondage to deceiving spirits because they are caught up tangents that have little to no eternal significance at all. They do nothing to promote the Gospel or lift up Christ. From the KJV is the only true Bible crowd, to when is the Sabbath, to GMO is of the Devil, to keeping of the feasts/festivals/dietary laws, to the type of music played or the instruments allowed in church, or how one should dress.

        The truth is every single man who stands in the pulpit called by God to preach is a false teacher in the sense that at some time during his ministry he will likely teach something that is not completely true. But that doesn’t mean we should label them a False Teacher and an Apostate.

        The truth is when we understand the Lord Jesus Christ’s heart for His Bride and how He views The Body and hates it when members war against each other for no real cause, we are much more careful with what we say. Yes, we must be quick to call out lies and false teachings when they are clearly such. But insinuations and innuendos have NO place in the speech of a Believer. Even “guilt by association” must be done VERY carefully. Drawing conclusion from one’s own personal tunnel vision and filters where something has not been overtly said MUST be done with the utmost care and the realization that their own personal biases may be shading something wrongfully.

        To do otherwise is to operate in the Flesh and not the Spirit and very likely places us in opposition to God. Case in point is my two examples of what Sunny wrote and you references. One of us must be right and one of us must be wrong. Given the assumption that we are both Believers, one of us cannot be operating in the Spirit with what we wrote. One of us told an outright, indisputable lie when the claim was made that the movie makes Mary a 13th Apostle. It does not. Therefore that is a lie. Now, which one do you think is operating in the Spirit?

        I do not want to be in opposition to God. So when I think there is something a little off but I can’t prove it, I will state it as my opinion or speculation but I can’t state it as fact. Let us always fight The Enemy but let us also always build up the Body and not tear it down. Rebuke, reprove, exhort, and admonish when necessary but one better be really careful when they start throwing away parts of the Body by claiming they are Unbelievers when they are in fact not. That’s likely to bring a chastening from God.

        I pray that you’ll thoughtful and prayerfully consider these things. May God bless you as you continue to serve Him.

        • Tammy says:

          wow You think there is nothing wrong with what Rick Warren says and then propagates a mix of religions? What does darkness have to do with light? we will love one and not the other, sound familiar?

          Rick Warren is a false teacher the catholic religion is a false religion and loaded with false teachings. What ever happened to exposing the liars and speaking truth? Paul exposed false teachers and called them out by name.

          Peter was called by Jesus the very first one to follow the Lord, along with the sons of thunder, John and James. Peter was not the first pope there was no pope until many years after Peters death.

          You have a lot to learn about what constitutes false teachings of Jesus. Any other Jesus is false teaching and just because someone skirts the line does not make it okay for them. Ecumenism is absolutely wrong!! In every way it is wrong and not of the Lord.

          muslim hindu buddhism catholicism all of it does not go along with anything of the bible. The pope says the Qu’ran is a holy book and truly inspired by God! This in your opinion is good? you really need to learn the word of God for yourself and stop listening to the world it will and is leading you astray.

          the Holy Spirit would not agree with your assessment I know because He lives in me and guides me and has me expose truth of these lies all the time! The Qu’ran says that allah is the best liar we know the Lord our God there is no lie in Him how are you or anyone going to throw in Muslim teachings with Christian and make it work? the Qu’ran and it’s eschatology book the Hadith are antichrist, plain and simple!

          …2 John 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

          the quran and the teaching of Islam denies Christ! To agree with one drip drop of Chrislam is to deny Christ!! Rick Warren invented Chrislam and is working to bring in the one world religion along with the pope and the muslims you need to learn the dangers of your false believing!

          • Tammy, I did NOT say there is nothing wrong with Rick Warren. In fact, I said there are some things that he’s said which concern me and cause me pause. And you never heard me say that Catholicism is true Christianity. It is not. As for “exposing the liars and speaking truth”, that is a Gift from the Holy Spirit. It is not everyone’s. It is the Gift of Prophecy which just happens to be my primary spiritual gift.

            Your statement “Ecumenism is absolutely wrong!! In every way it is wrong and not of the Lord.” is absolutely false! It is a lie! ‘Ecumenism” as defined is “the principle or aim of promoting unity among the world’s Christian churches.” If you think Jesus Christ does not want His people promoting unity about the world’s Christian churches, you need to learn who Jesus is and what it means to major on the Majors and minor on the Minors.

            “muslim hindu buddhism catholicism all of it does not go along with anything of the bible. The pope says the Qu’ran is a holy book and truly inspired by God! This in your opinion is good?” NO I DO NOT!!! And therefore, your comment “you really need to learn the word of God for yourself and stop listening to the world it will and is leading you astray.”; is SIN. You have sinned against me by accusing me of listening to the world. You are NOT omniscient and you do NOT know me from Adam and therefore have placed yourself in the place of God by such a statement. That is sin. Now let’s see if you’ll listen to the Holy Spirit and repent from that. Everything I said in my post I backed up with Scripture. I never made any such claim that muslim, hindu, buddhism, or Catholicism has anything to do with the Bible. It clearly does NOT!

            Rick Warren did not invent Chrislam and he adamantly denies it. I recently attended a seminar on Chrislam and afterwards I asked the speaker outright if he believed Rick Warren is teaching Chrislam and is a false teacher. His answer was the same as mine. He does and says things that cause concern but the answer is no.

            “the Holy Spirit would not agree with your assessment I know because He lives in me and guides me and has me expose truth of these lies all the time!” How foolish! How arrogant! I am indwelt with the Holy Spirit but to think that I have all truth? Not hardly! And neither do you. But you have just proved the point I tried to make in my post. Thank you for that.

            As I said before, when you bear false witness about a Brother or Sister in Christ and make unwarranted accusations against another one of God’s children, you stand in opposition to God Himself. I pray that you will see the folly in just this post and that your eyes would be opened to the truth.

          • Tammy says:

            Jesus is not about uniting the churches!! He is about uniting the body in Truth wow you have a serious mistaken view of jesus yourself.

            The word is my guide I do not go to church because they promote this kind of garbage you are spewing here. Why would you think that jesus is looking to unite churches? Ekklesia is not church it is a misquoted word in the text’s of the translations of the bible.

            False teaching is false teaching and Rick Warren is a disgusting false teacher! To shake hands with anything he says, is a gross miscalculation on anyones part. Read the letters in Revelation to the bodies in the spirit of Christ, and see there is no unity there even!

            Uniting churches is not biblical! Uniting holding hands with people who do not understand the bible and instead bring in destructive heresies is not what God had in mind for His body! You cannot unteach their false doctrines so we are to have nothing to do with them.

            You find it prudent to do that hey go for it but really you ill only have yourself to blame for not knowing truth. The doctrines of demons sound all the time like it is of God, but it cannot withstand close scrutiny, when compared with the word of God.

            i feel sorry for you to think you think it is all good to go ahead and try and form some sort of congregation with liars and false teachers and false believers we are told stay away from them.

            2 Tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
            6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
            7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.<<<<<<<< now that is truth!

        • Okay, now I have time to respond to this comment. Sunny Shell is not bearing false witness on this movie. She is not a liar. She wrote a movie review that you disagree with.

          As far as the calling of Peter, it is unbiblical. It is a watered down social gospel. In the movie Jesus did not come to raise up evangelists (fishers of men) to share the Gospel (of substitutionary atonement for sins) like the Bible teaches. The movie changes the great commission to “We are going to change the world.” I agree with Sunny wholeheartedly. The gospel isn’t to change the world. It is to change individual hearts, and regenerate them–new creations. To save us from our sins. This was absent from the film.

          I also think you misunderstood that Sunny was speaking metaphorically about Mary being the 13th disciple. Her point was that in the Bible we don’t see Mary walking around with Jesus and the disciples. After Jesus begins his public ministry we see her at the Wedding of Cana and then we see her one time inquire to speak to him, and then finally at the cross. In this three year time frame the Bible only mentions her three times. And yet in the movie, we see her take on a much more active and present role. Presumably so that the Catholic church would be happy, and so that Roma Downey could have more screen time. Certainly not because it is actually true.

          As far as agreeing to Rick Warren’s comments as he spoke to non-Christian religious leaders, do you realize that he just gave them licence and blessing to keep leading people to hell? God is not for them. He is for His Son. He did not send his Son to the earth to die on the cross, so that Christian leaders can work nicely with pagan ministers for world peace. I don’t understand how that doesn’t really upset you. He is not interested in what religion they are? God didn’t create the universe for religion? This is horrible! God most certainly did create the universe for what we all think of as religion. Do deny this is rhetoric and semantics. You can’t say that these people understood it any other way. He gave them licence to minister in false religion, and he blessed it. God can’t have a relationship with a Hindu or an atheist. So the first thing that Rick Warren should have done was be honest with them, and we can’t just assume that this is okay because maybe he shared with them the gospel privately! You said that we don’t know that he didn’t, but if he didn’t do it PUBLICLY he was wrong. Is he ashamed of the Gospel? Did Paul encourage idolatry at Mars Hill? If not, he was just as wrong as the High Priest of Israel was when he tried to reinstate temple worship by putting an idol inside. You can’t lead people to Christ by making concessions to slowly lead them into truth. You can only share the truth, and let them decide what to do with it.

          Anyways, that is all I feel like responding to at the moment.

        • I also want to share this video with you. He might make you mad, but if you do take the time to watch this study, that would be awesome. God bless Royce!

    • Donna Machado says:

      Royce – If you care to research, the information is there. Be a berean…use discernment. Rick Warren is calling us to be one with Catholics, who some Catholics say Mary is a Co-redemtrix with Christ, who say priest should be celibate, Paul says not to forbid a man to marry…this is why there is so much pediophilia in the RC church, it is immoral to allow this to go on….then there’s pergatory??? The list goes on. Muslims who say Allah has no son? How can we agree with someone who denies the Son? The Son on the cross is the gospel. Hindus? Hindus do not believe in Jesus as a Savior…please see Romans 9:10. Jesus Himself says “I am the way the truth and
      the life, NO ONE comes to the Father but by me. What has oight to do with darkness? What does someone who claims that Jesus IS the only way have to do with those who highlight that Jesus isn’t the only way, or that God doesn’t have a son…its blasphemy Royce. May you test the spirits and ask God to show you the Truth. We shall know them by their fruit!

      • Donna, that is not true. Rick Warren is NOT calling us “to be one with Catholics”. What Rick Warren has said, and I agree with him on this, is that we can work alongside one another to serve our fellow humans. And that is true. It does not violate the “have no fellowship with darkness”.

        For example, the Catholics and Mormons (both false religions) believe that Abortion is wrong and SSM is wrong. To join forces, if you will, and say pool the money, in order to get Pro-Life and Pro-Family candidates elected to office is not having fellowship with darkness but rather is furthering godliness and the truth of Scripture. If say, a Christian missionary group can come alongside with Muslims to stop the spread of AIDS or feed the starving, then so be it. So long as it does not violate any other Scripture. Such as agreeing not to present the Gospel. I know Christian Missionaries who’ve gone into countries to serve the poor and starving and they’ve done so with the understanding that they would not evangelize. That would be neglecting the Great Commission to fulfill another Scripture. One can’t violate a Scripture to fulfill another. One cannot disobey God in one command to obey another. I’m not sure I said that the best but hopefully it comes across as meant.

        It’s been said that you can’t give the spiritual food of the Gospel to a man whose stomach is empty. I don’t buy into that.

        Once again, I want to be PERFECTLY CLEAR! I am NOT saying the Catholic religion is Christian. I do not condone the Catholic teachings. Nowhere in my post did I do so. The fact that you and Tammy get off on your tangents about Catholicism, Chrislam, or whatever is evidence that you are not reading what I wrote nor seeing what I said but rather are blinded by your own agenda. Further evidence of that is your comment “this is why there is so much pediophilia in the RC church.” You do NOT know that. You are NOT God and only God can know why there is so much pedophilia in the RC church. Anytime anyone purports to know something that ONLY God alone can know is EVIDENCE that it is NOT the Holy Spirit doing the talking. Rather it is evidence of sin in that they have placed themselves in the position of God.

        What both you and Tammy are missing ties into the same false comparison that Broderson made in the Whosoevers interview. Only he does just the opposite. Both he and you are wrong. What you two are missing is that a Christian can work together with an Unbeliever for the good and glory of God. Christians do it ever single day. Warren is just doing it on a much larger scale. A Christian carpenter can build a house for and with an Unbeliever. To God be the glory. THAT does not mean the Christian agrees with the Unbeliever’s thoughts about God. A Christian could build a house for and with a Buddhist, Hindu, Catholic, Mormon, Muslim or what have you. THAT does NOT mean the Christian agrees with their thoughts about God. A Christian can serve at a Catholic or even Secular food bank. That does NOT mean that they agree with their beliefs. A Christian could be a doctor at St. Jude’s Hospital saving countless children’s lives. That does NOT mean he/she agrees with Catholicism.

        1st Cor. 10 has application here. As you said, “May you test the spirits and ask God to show you the Truth.”

        • Donna Machado says:

          We are to worship in Spirit and in Truth, how do you worship in Spirit and in Truth with those who do not know the Spirit. When you read in Ephesians about the armor of God it says “Stand therefore having your loins gird about with Truth” and then he says “And having the breastplate of righteousness”. There is no righteousness without the Truth. The
          Truth is Jesus. What you are talking
          about is the social gospel. Going out with
          those who are not believers to give
          assistance (whatever that may be) and
          not sharing the Truth (Gospel) with them.
          You’ve just fed them, and clothed them
          but without sharing the gospel, they are
          still going to go to hell. How loving is
          that?
          Rick Warren is buddying up with Muslims,
          he is joining forces with Catholics, he is
          interviewing hindus to learn from them.
          Hinduism is mans wisdom…the only
          wisdom we have is Gods Word, if we are
          trying to learn Truth from a Hindu, we are
          void of His Truth. Why didn’t Rick Warren share the gospel with these men (the
          Catholic, the Hindu and the Muslim? He bepieves we have something to learn from each other…? Everything I need is in His Word.
          Who is a liar, he that denied that Jesus is the Christ? He is anti christ, that denied the Father and the Son…your going to fellowship with anti-christs? 1John 2:22
          Who so ever transgresseth and abideth not in THE doctrine of Christ hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come ANY unto you, and THEY BRING NOT THIS DOCTRINE, RECEIVE HIM NOT INTO YOUR HOUSE, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is a PARTAKER OF HIS EVIL DEEDS! 2 John 9-11.
          This website has an excellent article on
          what Rick Warren has been up to.

          http://apprising.org/2010/07/13/rick-

          warren-and-roman-catholics/
          As to my charge against the RC and pedophilia, please see: https://moriel.org/MorielArchive/index.php/discernment/catholicism/roman-catholic-clergy-and-sex-crimes-against-
          children
          Rick Warren on Hinduism:

          v=GWvfQZRmYO4
          Rick Warren on Muslims:http://www.holybibleprophecy.org/2012/02/28/rick-warren-acknowledges-christians-and-muslims-worship-same-god-by-elliott-nesch/
          Royce – Please consider what you are saying, is it true…test the spirits! Lets learn to worship our God in the way He has asked us to, or we become open to deception. May His Holy Spirit lead us in all Truth….

          • Tammy says:

            Amen sister all the way through!! yes and yes again!

          • Donna, you have once again brought in a subject and made an assumption that I NEVER inserted or addressed! Read what I wrote. I NEVER said anything about worshipping with those other entities! I was VERY clear in what I said and even gave several examples. All of which talked about SERVING. “WORKING” together. Period.

            And no, I am NOT talking about a “social gospel”. Putting words in my mouth serve no better purpose than thinking you can read my mind. Here’s another example for you and Tammy, though I doubt it’ll do any good. Look at Paul. Paul was a Tentmaker. Do you think that Paul only made tents for Believers?

            “You’ve just fed them, and clothed them but without sharing the gospel, they are still going to go to hell. How loving is that?” Hmmm…. let me think…. Uh, I’d say ever bit as loving as when Jesus healed the many and fed the thousands. Let’s see, the Bible I read says that Jesus said to the paraplegic, “Do you want to be healed?” Maybe yours says Jesus gave the Gospel and asked if the man would accept it before being healed.

            “Rick Warren is buddying up with Muslims, he is joining forces with Catholics, he is
            interviewing hindus to learn from them.” Still playing God I see. The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. You might wanna chew on that one for awhile because God doesn’t take kindly to anyone putting themselves on His level. The Pharisees, who were also blind, said pretty much the same thing: “The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.” (Matt. 11:19) Looks like Rick Warren is in some pretty good company.

            “Why didn’t Rick Warren share the gospel with these men” – How do you know he didn’t? Oh, that’s right. I forgot. Your omniscient.

            “Who so ever transgresseth and abideth not in THE doctrine of Christ hath not God.” I agree. How you doing with this doctrine: “For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies” (Matt. 15:19), “He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness” (Matt. 19:18), We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.” (1st Jn. 3:14) Rick Warren has NEVER denied that Jesus is the Christ. Quite to the contrary and despite the numerous false accusations and lies, he has repeatedly stated that Jesus is the ONLY way.

            YOU are in NO place to tell me or anyone else how to worship. One cannot worship God in spirit and in truth when they refuse to confess and repent from their own sin. I have spoken the truth and I gave specific examples. How can you not admit that you are not omniscient and that it was sin to say such things?

            As for the links, I’ll read them when you tell me that you’ll read the numerous links I can send you that refute what you’re saying. I’ve already read several various articles and blogs which accuse Warren of the same things you are. And every single one of them is drawing conclusions based on something they absolutely cannot know and their assigning motives which only God can know.

            This is my last word to you as well. I can tell an unteachable spirit when I see one and when there’s just no reasoning together.

        • Tammy says:

          YOU SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE! sound familiar? That is biblical John 8:32
          We can know the truth, the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth at all times! For you to say we are to have anything to do with these people sounds so humanist.

          They believe working together with all walks of life can work, it cannot!! We are as the children of God to help our fellow humans but most of all we are to make disciples of the world and those people’s aim is not to make people disciples it is to lead astray and showing us over and over again that even thinking they can work together is foolishness.

          Does it show Paul and or Peter and or John in the word doing anything for their government and or other religions? Never!! The brotherhood alone did all they could for the people who converted to Christ, not the community that were outside of it.

          How does this in your mind come from the bible? To work hand in hand with the people of the world is not done. The Lord says come away from the world and it’s sytem do not help it in any way shape or form, lest we become partakers of the world and forfeit our inheritance. Ephesians 5:11
          Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. In Philippians 2, we are told to be of one spirit one mind and those people outside of the Lord’s do not have like mindedness with us nor are they of the Spirit.

          Look around youtube and see what is wrong with this trying to work together with those who have a form of Godliness, but do not have the Holy Spirit, it cannot work! Doing works with our brothers and sisters in Christ and for them is what we do not for the world the world will take care of it’s own and love it’s own but they by nature hate us, because we are Christs, they first hated Him, so they naturally hate us.

          Being loved by the world is bad bad bad, friends with the world is enmity with God. That is why i do not understand nor accept your point of view. Rick Warren may know about Christ, but he certainly does not know Christ!

          Go listen to Jacob Prasch on ecumenical, and or Rick Warren’s views, see what he has to say. He is a messianic Jew, and a very smart one at that. I listen to him speak because I know he speaks truth.

          I am not trying to come down on you, I am trying to warn you that this is a very unhealthy point of view, to think we can get along with anyone in, or of the world! Your intended insults really roll right off my back! I think it is funny how people love to do that, when you disagree with them.

          • Tammy, you are correct in that Jesus is not about uniting the churches rather the Believers in those churches. That’s what I meant when I said what I said. Technically, I misspoke. My mistake. That being said, Jesus still wants unity amongst the various local body of Believers. One only needs to look to the Bible for that. Do you think for a second that Paul traveled to the various churches and did not try and bring unity between them? Oh please! You’re just being divisive and Christ has NO part in being divisive when it comes to unity of the brethren.

            “The word is my guide I do not go to church because they promote this kind of garbage you are spewing here.” That is disobedience and rebellion. But it is no surprise. I’ve tried to talk to the likes of folks like you before. You hold yourself up as THE authority with all Truth and yet refuse to submit to leaders who can teach you. Scripture is full of teachings on why a Believer should be a member of a local body of Believers.

            So now you are not only in opposition to God because you tear down the Body instead of building it up but you also refuse to do what His Word says and be part of a local body.

            And I noticed that you did not address at all your false accusation toward me nor did you address your sin of putting yourself in the place of God. Both sins are clear and instead of addressing your sin, you continue with your haughty words. I suggest you take a look at Matt. 7:21-23. I’ve said my last to you.

        • bree says:

          A follower of Christ will only go where the spirit leads him . So even though all your examples sound nice and universal, the holy spirit will decide where we go. And since mr. Warren does not follow the holy spirit, I would be cautious where he leads you.

          • Royce says:

            Exactly the kind of stuff I talked about in my posts. Taking what Warren says out of context. Warren clearly says that the act of washing the people with AIDS feet was the perfect example of humility! He did not say that the Pope was perfect. Then this guy goes on to say that Warren is rejoicing in the blaspheming of God just because it makes a great opportunity for a photo op. That is speaking to Warren’s motives and heart. That is sin.

            I don’t like that Warren used the term “our Pope” either. But I also know what he’s referring to. He’s referring to the World as it is today. And Warren is wrong when he says things like “the world will listen to you when they like what they see”. Christ is the perfect example of that being wrong.

            I just sent a nice reply to your last comments to me. Unfortunately, it appears that they didn’t go thru and I may have been blocked. That speaks volumes. And it’s unfortunate because there were some things I agree with you about and some that I think you should spend some time thinking about. Particularly when it comes to partiality, see the truth, and doing the very thing that you criticized Broderson for.

          • It went through. I just responded to it.

  16. Donna Machado says:

    It seems some of my links did not post well, Royce if you are seeking Truth, please research…

    • Donna Machado says:

      This scripture dropped into my spirit…Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils; ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table and of the table of devils. 1 Corinthians 10:21. Some may see that as harsh, yet as I stated from Gods Word in 1 John 2:22, He who denieth that Jesus is the Christ – He is an anti-christ….

      • 1st Cor. 10 is the Chapter that I referenced above. Try reading the verse you referenced in context. It works better.

        And btw, since you seem to be so eager for me to do my research, try Googling “Piper interviews Rick Warren”. I suppose you think John Piper is a False Teacher and heretic too? If Piper has no problem with Warren, I sure don’t.

        • bree says:

          Since when does a man dictate what is right? Only the Lord knows the heart. You should follow Christ not man . We should live by the spirit not by who mr. Piper says is acceptable. The holy spirit will be are guide in these troubling times. You shouldnt put your trust in man.

        • Tammy says:

          you are absolutely disgusting and have no clue what you are talking about. You pretend to know something when what you think you know is a bunch of horse dung. i never put myself in the place of God in what way did i do that?

          Not only that but really so you saying all of what you said here, is not what you meant? You said ecumenism is of God! No it most certainly is not! There is not one spot the Lord says anything like it to the churches He is judging in Revelation 2 and 3. You do not understand I gave you bible verses and you completely and utterly skipped right past them and accuse us of not reading what you write you did that, obviously with the bible verses I gave!

          I don’t know why you do not know the verses in 1 John 2:27 that says But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.

          The Lord is the one who is calling His people out of the churches. Joining with the likes of Catholics and joining with the likes of Rick Warren is not to be done. You said yourself that Rick warren worries you but that he never goes too far that is a straight up lie. Calling ones self a Christian does not a Christian make.

          You brag on yourself and nonchalantly put in that your personal calling is prophecy. LOL why do I need to know this? you actually make me pretty sick with this bullying you do. You degrade women to make yourself feel superior, all the while telling others that they are doing that. Hypocrite!

          We are told to what by Jesus? Beware that no one deceives you!! Matthew 24:4 through 12. Knowing who is a false teacher and who is not, and warning about that, is not a bad thing, it is the right thing! The church is in the state it is in because of complacency and apathy as well as tolerance.

          i do not go to church because i refuse to compromise the truth of the word of God and no man in the place I live is teaching truth. I would never come to you for teaching because you are cold hard and a bully. you have a serious pride issue. Not only that but you believe that ecumenism is the right way to go. Definitely a feel good Christian who thinks it is improper to judge whom you will listen to! Yeah dude you have issues!!

          Matthew 7:21-23 read it and understand not everyone who says they are a Christian is, and with how little you know, while pretending to know, (It is easy to see through by the way) says you are not a true Christian. The Lord’s own know it is not divisive to call out false teachers and liars.

          feel good Christianity these days says oh no you cannot judge anything and or anyone but that is a lie of the times. Everyone is supposed to shut up and tolerate the lies no defense of the word sad sad mess you are!

          • Tailfeathers says:

            Bree, I suggest you read your Bible. For you to say “A follower of Christ will only go where the spirit leads him.” if just ridiculous. As far as Rick Warren following the Holy Spirit, I’ll jut tell you the same thing I told the other two. Watch John Piper interview Rick Warren. I’d love to see the 3 of you saying the same things to John Piper!

          • I will further reply when I get a chance. But I will just say this, no John Piper’s endorsement does not prove anything to me. John Piper also endorsed Mark Driscoll. And John Piper has made troubling statements about domestic violence that strengthen the hand of the wicked, putting families in danger. Yes, John Piper says good things sometimes. But I can’t follow men. I have to follow the Word of God. Men are fallible, even the best of them.

            Also, I need to point out that having an opinion about Rick Warren based on documented statements and actions is not bearing false witness and sinning. It is using caution and discussing troubling circumstances in the church.

            If I told you just how much I thought about Rick Warren’s part in the apostasy, I might be giving “too much” opinion. But even then, it is a discussion not sin.

            I too would suggest that you listen to Jacob Prasch. He is an amazing teacher and he clearly shows how this ecumenical and new age stuff is fulfilling biblical prophecy. It is going to happen. It will get worse.

            I think if this conversation continues in a heated or argumentative direction, then I will have to cut off the comments on this. I don’t want to. But it doesn’t seem like we are going to come to any agreement on this. And stirring up frustration at this point is just a distraction from the things God has in store for us this week.

            I totally appreciate Bree, Donna, and Tammy chiming in! Thank you for sharing your reasoning and verses when I didn’t have the time to respond! It was awesome!

            May God bless the work of His Word in our lives and give us wisdom to understand and obey it.

          • Tammy says:

            To The Last Hiker! I agree with all you have said, it is absolute truth. many blessings to you! And my fellow sisters!

  17. Hiker, glad to see pipe in. Just a couple of thoughts on what you wrote.

    “But I will just say this, no John Piper’s endorsement does not prove anything to me…But I can’t follow men. I have to follow the Word of God. Men are fallible, even the best of them.” I agree. NO human is infallible in their teaching. I didn’t reference the Piper interview because Piper endorses Warren. Not at all. I referenced it because Piper asks very probing, serious, and indepth questions on doctrine and one can see Warren answer them personally. And Piper challenges Warren on several things so there can be no doubt.

    “Also, I need to point out that having an opinion about Rick Warren based on documented statements and actions is not bearing false witness and sinning.” That may or may not be true. It all depends on what those statements are and whether they are taken in context or not. It also depends on whether those documented statements are actual quotes in context or assumptions and conclusions drawn by a third party. In the latter, it could very likely be sin.

    Sorry to hear that you “totally appreciate” the other three chiming in. If you can’t see the sin in their comments then you’re not as discerning and sensitive to the Spirit as I gave you credit for. Claiming they have all truth and especially when they play God! That would seem to indicate you are more interested in pushing an agenda than serving God which is extremely disappointing. If that’s the case, I won’t bother looking at your posts in the future and leave you to accumulate followers that will always agree with your points of view.

    • Royce, you say, “Sorry to hear that you “totally appreciate” the other three chiming in. If you can’t see the sin in their comments then you’re not as discerning and sensitive to the Spirit as I gave you credit for. Claiming they have all truth and especially when they play God! That would seem to indicate you are more interested in pushing an agenda than serving God which is extremely disappointing. If that’s the case, I won’t bother looking at your posts in the future and leave you to accumulate followers that will always agree with your points of view.”

      See, this is what they were trying to tell you is coming off harsh! I don’t mind people not agreeing with my point of view. I enjoy discussion. But this discussion has not been one that I enjoy. It has gotten too heated and accusatory.

      I do appreciate them chiming in! I had seen your response the the information I had given you on Rick Warren. It was a bit accusatory. I usually like to respond to accusatory comments right away. So I had to choose if I should post it, or wait until I could respond. I chose to post it anyway, and just respond to it later. But I am happy that the conversation continued despite my lack of participation. They were able to make some great points. Until things got too heated. I considered cutting it off earlier, but I didn’t. I probably should have. I just didn’t want to be accused of “only publishing comments that I agree with” . . . so I let it continue. And yet you accused me of partiality despite my lack of partiality, just because I agree with them about Rick Warren and the false teaching coming into the church. I had already taken that stance, before they even started addressing you.

      Despite that, you still accused me of trying to “accumulate followers that always agree with my point of view” — and if I was you, and responding to you the way you have responded to us, I would say something like, “Royce, are you putting yourself in the place of God and trying to act like you know my motives and my heart? You are setting yourself up to be God. You have no way of knowing that. Only God knows my motives. You are bearing false witness against me and you are in sin. You are not discerning or sensitive to the Holy Spirit. I am prophetic.” You have said these things to all of us. But I won’t say this to you. I will just say that I disagree. And, yes Tammy got upset, it became a heated argument on all sides. I think we were all getting pretty upset.

      Do you see how unprofitable this conversation is?

      I do appreciate constructive discussion! You are welcome to it. But this has me shaking my head too. Let us agree to disagree. If you want to follow this blog and share your thoughts, you are very welcome to do so. I would love that. But if you don’t want to, because you think that I am a liar or showing partiality, then that is fine. It happens everyday. I am not seeking followers of the blog. I started this blog for myself; I never thought anyone would ever read anything I wrote here. I have no psychological need to pander for the sake of popularity. I just want to write what I think is true, and if people want to talk about it with me and other people, then excellent. But I am not going to change my stance on these things because people get upset with it.

      I don’t think I am going to publish any more comments for this conversation between you, Tammy, Bree, and Donna though. Not because I am “pushing an agenda,” but because it is pointless (Disclaimer-I do use this blog to push an agenda–overall, I write against seeker-friendly, new age and occult ideas that permeate the church. But that is not why I am cutting off the discussion). You are not seeing what they are trying to say, and everyone’s words are being twisted and used against them. It is unhealthy.

      Anyways, (deep breath) I don’t know if I am coming across the way I mean to right now. I don’t have time to pray more before I post this. I may comment on some of the other comments that have been posted so far. But as far as you guys addressing each other, I think I am going to stop that here before things get WORSE! LOL Anyways. May the Holy Spirit lead us into truth, and may we not follow the voice of another (including hirelings).

      God bless.

      • Donna Machado says:

        Hiker, I appreciate your blog very much! I believe we can share Truth, and those who have an ear to hear will hear, as I did. I too was once deceived, and dull of hearing, and when I was told Truth, I recognized it as Truth. (Jesus told the Pharisees, if you believed Moses, you would believe me) I didn’t really know what that meant until the Lord showed me His Truth. I did a lot of research into so many bizarre things that were being passed off as biblical, and were not (Thankfully we were in His Word to recognize the difference.)
        I can clearly see why Jesus will say to some on that day “I never knew you”! I pray earnestly that is never me. I test the spirits, and ask God to do whatever it takes to keep me from being deceived. Additionally, In the past I began to realize that I was cutting the ear off of those I was trying to reason with, (certainly not meaning to) hoping they too would see the Truth. Now Royce may see us as harsh, because a veil is still over his eyes…and the world is being groomed in political correctness…. yet, sometimes we must be harsh, because this is how Jesus dealt with the religious leaders of His day. Sometimes harsh is what is needed, if it is scripture from His Word. See the woes Jesus spoke to the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23:13-36. Sometimes harsh = love. Like yelling in a partially deaf mans ear, warning of a danger ahead.
        I would never attack Royce personally, because as I said, I too was deceived once.
        I love how the Lord showed me spiritual adultery through reading the prophets…and I believe we either have eyes to see this compromise, or we do not. But, there is a chance for us if we have a love for the Truth.
        May we never stop speaking His Truth, and as I tell my son, I do not have an opinion, His Word is my opinion.
        Be blessed Hiker…
        Additionally, I did want to share an article I saw today on Rick Warren…

        http://standupforthetruth.com/2014/12/rick-warren-publicly-called-repentance-statements-uniting-catholics/

      • Anonymous says:

        I hear what you’re saying but what I don’t understand is why you think my stating that the other three sinned is harsh and “you are disgusting” gets no comment whatsoever? Yes, I understand that telling someone they sinned, are sinning, or are in sin is harsh to many, if not most. I would have had no problem with your saying that you “appreciated” their chiming in but “totally appreciate” appears to condone their actions. Which seemed to me to be surprising at it is tantamount of doing the same thing that Broderson was doing with Reis and Welch.

        For the record, I did not accuse you of accumulating followers that agree with you. Please read my comments again. I clearly said, “If that is the case…” I did not assign your motives or think that I know your heart. I asked you to explain that.

        And for the record, I do not think you are a Liar. Thought never crossed my mind. I do think you are showing partiality. You have publicly addressed my comments here and have not addressed the comments at all from the others. Why do you not condemn the statements that clearly are in opposition to God?

        Go back and look at the very first comment that Tammy made in response to my post. It was accusatory, playing God, therefore sinful, and then she launched in to a bunch of stuff that I never even addressed. And that sin was not the only one. I addressed each instance just a Scripture tells me I should. (Matt. 18) Each one is clearly stated in my replies.

        Then there is the “you are disgusting”. Personal attacks because she didn’t like the message. And you said nothing. Then there is the absolute false teaching and heresy that Jesus is calling His People out of the churches. Not to mention the admitted refusal to attend a local body which is the sin of disobedience and rebellion.

        I could go on as I addressed each in my replies (actually hoping you’d see them and address them too) but I imagine you get the point. You did show partiality.

        You came across just fine. No worries. And I hope my reply comes across as I intend as well. This is your blog. You can operate it any way you want. I do sense that your desire would be to operate it in a way that glorifies God and brings only the truth. If that is the case, and I repeat, if that is the case, then I would expect that you would clearly speak out on any instances where one is sinning against another – let’s remember, I am also indwelt by the Holy Spirit, a Son of the Most High God, and joint-heir with Jesus Christ – as well as clearly rejecting any false teaching/heresy one puts forth. You spoke out accurately about Broderson’s responsibility/duty to do the same wrt Reis, Welch, Korn, etc. He has clearly got more than a speck in his eye. But why can’t you see that you have done the same?

        • You say, “I hear what you’re saying but what I don’t understand is why you think my stating that the other three sinned is harsh and “you are disgusting” gets no comment whatsoever?” I did mention it! Did I not say that the discussion got heated?! Of course I saw that it got heated.

          You say, “I do think you are showing partiality. You have publicly addressed my comments here and have not addressed the comments at all from the others.” I don’t know if I have made this clear enough, but I have not had the time to invest in this argument that you guys have had recently. I am not at liberty to sit here and address every comment that comes in, and pick apart every jot and tittle that disagrees with me. Sometimes I can, and other times I can’t. That said, I am not the dispenser of all truth, and wisdom. Yes I moderate the comments, but I wasn’t able to participate until at certain times today. The conversation was between you guys, and you already corrected what you felt needed to be corrected. Why do you need me to come in and back you up? Or are you just wanting to know where I stand? Where I stand is for a healthy discussion, but I don’t like things getting heated.

          The discussion began about Rick Warren, so that is what I addressed. Everything else got heated and off track and words were twisted. I don’t have time for rhetoric, and seriously. It seems that every time I respond to you, you will take my words and tell me that I am wrong about what I think you are saying. It is kind of hard to respond to you sometimes. So maybe I am off, maybe we are having trouble understanding each other. I don’t know.

          You say, “Go back and look at the very first comment that Tammy made in response to my post. It was accusatory, playing God, therefore sinful, and then she launched in to a bunch of stuff that I never even addressed. And that sin was not the only one. I addressed each instance just a Scripture tells me I should. (Matt. 18) Each one is clearly stated in my replies. Then there is the “you are disgusting”. Personal attacks because she didn’t like the message. And you said nothing. [Actually, I don’t feel like functioning as a parent here] Then there is the absolute false teaching and heresy that Jesus is calling His People out of the churches. Not to mention the admitted refusal to attend a local body which is the sin of disobedience and rebellion. I could go on as I addressed each in my replies (actually hoping you’d see them and address them too) but I imagine you get the point. You did show partiality.”

          I don’t think Tammy was playing God, and yes she said that you were disgusting. I addressed that by acknowledging that the argument got heated. I do agree with her that it is hard to find a good church, and I personally would rather form my own home church than attend a local seeker friendly/apostate church. I believe she meant that God is calling His true church out of bad churches, calling the remnant out of the apostate system. So I can’t argue with her on that, because the remnant needs to leave apostasy but they are still the church. But I guess, where you see me not addressing her personally, I guess I figured I had already addressed everyone. And I didn’t need to go leave a comment asking her to play nicer because you are a grown man, and can handle a heated debate that you have a hand in escalating. If your feelings are hurt, I apologize. That is why I stopped it. I don’t want any of you to come here and leave frustrated!!! And all of you did, I am sure that they were just as upset as you were.

          But like I said, I am not able to go through everyone’s comments right now and address every single thing I agree or disagree with. Even your comments, I don’t address every point you make. I just pick a couple things that stick out to me.

          You know, these women don’t even know me personally. They took the time this weekend to speak out for what they believe in. They did it with passion and they got upset. I wish I could have been more involved. But I honestly feel like they are standing up for what they believe is truth, and I do appreciate all comments. Especially those that take the time to share information that I don’t have time to share at the moment. It helped me out. I agree with them about the facts they were presenting. I think Rick Warren is dangerous. I think we need to be careful and wise about who we embrace. We do need to call ministers to account for how they publicly represent Christ.

          Pastor Brian Brodersen has a responsibility to stop false teaching, and worldiness in Calvary Chapels. I don’t expect him to be a police officer of every argument and disagreement in the church. I am not going to call him and ask him to come and mediate between you and Tammy. You should do that yourselves. It is not someone else’s job to mediate conflict, unless the people are willing and have already made an effort on their own. I stopped the conflict. That is all I can do. As far as making it right, I can’t do that. So I am not doing the same thing as Pastor Brian. If I start posting Korn videos and posting Bill Johnson devotions, then you can tell me I am tolerating the spirit of Balaam and Jezebel. But this is not even the same thing. This whole argument started because I was taking a stand, like Brian should take–against a false teacher.

          Anyways, I do apologize if your feelings are hurt. That is not at all what I wanted. I can’t respond to any more comments for a while because I will be away from a computer this evening. My time has become unusually busy and I am overwhelmed by many responsibilities.

        • Tammy says:

          Because we did not sin. Not one of us sinned. We did not transgress any one of the ten commandments. We did not false witness steal kill covet commit idolatry but you do. You prove you do not know truth, by even thinking to call us sinners. Why because you disliked what we said and your pride could not handle it? So you decided to name call and act like a foolish child and accuse of things you know nothing about!

          • So I received another comment from Royce/Tailfeathers. I was going to post it and respond to it. In fact I wrote a long response. I got very upset in the process and I wasn’t being too friendly in the post! haha. But I changed my mind. I am not going to give him any more of my time or attempt to give him the benefit of the doubt any longer.

            He did a lot of what he has been doing to you guys these last 3 days, but he took it up a notch and told me that he wants to know where I go to church, and he wants to talk to my pastor about me, and I am working for the Devil. LOL. I am like, really? :) Yeah, no.

            So anyways, Royce/Tailfeathers if you see this. You have broken all three of the rules on my comment policy. So I am not going to allow you to continue to bully and intimidate here. I gave you room, and a platform to express yourself. You can’t do that respectfully. So you need to go find another blog that you agree with, or that you want to argue with.

          • Tammy says:

            I am sorry that I bring anger to the top for a lot of people. Sadly the world is a very lost place and most so called Christians do not get it. As Jacob Prasch has said recently, the blind will have the veil drop further over their eyes, and the seeing and truth seeking, will have the veil lifted even further and see clearer and clearer.

            Another thing is, the favorite thing for the people who like their ears tickled to get upset about, is touch not the anointed of the Lord, I think that is how Royce feels about Rick warren, or the many who are false teachers these days, and that is why he accused us of sinning by exposing them.

            Blessings to all of you. I love this blog, brother. It is pretty much everything I have said a time or two, about the son of God movie. And I have some more reading to do.

  18. Donna Machado says:

    Certain men crept in unaware… Jude 1:4.
    They will not listen to sound doctrine 2 Tim. 4:3-5.
    There are those who trouble you, and want pervert the good news. Gal. 1:7.
    Masquerading as Christ’s apostles. 2 Cor. 11:13.
    As false teachers will also be among you 2 Pet. 2:1

    If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, 4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain 1 Timothy 6:3-5.
    Beloved, don’t believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world 1 John 4:1.
    Test yourselves, whether you are in the faith. Test your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you are disqualified.
    These scriptures themselves should cause us to fear and tremble…we must warn of those who would pervert the gospel, we are in a spiritual war.
    Ephesians 5:11 tells us to “Reprove them”!
    We are also told to warn the wicked…or their blood will be on our hands.
    18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou gives’ him not warning, nor speaks to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Ezekiel 3:18-19
    9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it, if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Ezekiel 33:9
    So see, we are doing our job!

  19. Donna Machado says:

    Wow, talk to your pastor…! Yikes! He is advertising his arrogance! Its a blessing for me that our God uses the foolish things of this world, cause I perfectly fit that mold! Thanks for your well researched blog site! Bless you too!

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